Poker-AI.org

Poker AI and Botting Discussion Forum
It is currently Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:08 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:55 pm 
Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 2:35 pm
Posts: 33
Are there any card abstractions / bucketing methods available online that can take a hand on the flop, turn and river and spit out an "equivalence" group. (Almost like a lookup - for implementing in code)

Such that AJ on K73r is roughly equivalent to AQ on K72r to shrink the game tree.

From some of the reading I've done, the HU Limit bots used 169 buckets for preflop into 9000 buckets for flop, 9000 for turn and 9000 for river. Something of that magnitude would be great but I'll settle for any real way of classifying hands for now.

Thanks!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:43 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:39 pm
Posts: 642
mediacalc wrote:
Are there any card abstractions / bucketing methods available online that can take a hand on the flop, turn and river and spit out an "equivalence" group. (Almost like a lookup - for implementing in code)

Such that AJ on K73r is roughly equivalent to AQ on K72r to shrink the game tree.


The average and variance hand rank of AJK73 on the river is similar to the avarage and variance hand rank of AQK72 on the river.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:18 pm 
Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 2:35 pm
Posts: 33
spears wrote:
The average and variance hand rank of AJK73 on the river is similar to the avarage and variance hand rank of AQK72 on the river.


Not sure what you mean. I thought most abstractions used E(HS) and E(HS^2) to categorise hands?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:33 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:39 pm
Posts: 642
mediacalc wrote:

Not sure what you mean. I thought most abstractions used E(HS) and E(HS^2) to categorise hands?


E(HS) and E(HS^2) will group too many very different hands together in this scenario
Hand rank is a number that erm... ranks a hand. Royal Straight Flush is top rank
Average and variance arise from rolling out all future cards to river.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:07 am 
Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 2:35 pm
Posts: 33
spears wrote:
E(HS) and E(HS^2) will group too many very different hands together in this scenario
Hand rank is a number that erm... ranks a hand. Royal Straight Flush is top rank
Average and variance arise from rolling out all future cards to river.


I see, so E(HS) is not a great method. I suppose the publications that I read that used it were 10 years old.

How would hand rank be better though? There is no "flush draw" rank for example because it's not related to showdown.

What do you mean by averaging and variance? We enumerate all possible cards and see how our hand rank changes?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:00 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:39 pm
Posts: 642
mediacalc wrote:
I see, so E(HS) is not a great method. I suppose the publications that I read that used it were 10 years old.
I didn't say that. Ehs isn't good for the application you describe. If you think it is why don't you use it?

mediacalc wrote:
How would hand rank be better though? There is no "flush draw" rank for example because it's not related to showdown.

Flush draw has high variance

mediacalc wrote:
What do you mean by averaging and variance? We enumerate all possible cards and see how our hand rank changes?

Find all possible rivers that can develop from the hand.
Find the hand rank of each one
Find the average and variance of the list of hand ranks


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:22 am 
Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 2:35 pm
Posts: 33
spears wrote:
I didn't say that. Ehs isn't good for the application you describe. If you think it is why don't you use it?


What about this application makes it bad, from my understanding now, I thought it was used 5+ years ago but had been succeeded by other methods that built on it and are superior in every way? (Accuracy + Computation time mainly)

spears wrote:
Find all possible rivers that can develop from the hand.
Find the hand rank of each one
Find the average and variance of the list of hand ranks


Oh I see what you mean. That does have a lot of merit to it. From the publications I was reading they use a similar method but with earth mover's distance instead (EMD). I don't understand EMD enough to plug it in right now but I'll take a better look at it.

How would you recommend splitting it using your method (perhaps split into x categories by 1/x of the equity and then further split inside with variance? Or the other way around) and would you recommend looking at equity distribution over turn AND river too? The leading bots do that

Things would be a lot easier if someone had done all this already and stuck it on github :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:27 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:39 pm
Posts: 642
I think you have understood the idea now. So you can answer your latest questions yourself with some experiments.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:16 pm 
Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 2:35 pm
Posts: 33
spears wrote:
I think you have understood the idea now. So you can answer your latest questions yourself with some experiments.


Have you done any work on these things yourself in the past?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:50 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:39 pm
Posts: 642
Yes


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:06 am 
Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 2:35 pm
Posts: 33
spears wrote:
Yes


... Are these available anywhere or just your own private work?

Although, honestly, I'm sick of looking at code. I'd rather someone had summarised the theory behind these things in such a way that would make it NOT appropriate for academic work.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:47 pm 
Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 8:59 pm
Posts: 13
mediacalc wrote:
spears wrote:
Yes


... Are these available anywhere or just your own private work?

Although, honestly, I'm sick of looking at code. I'd rather someone had summarised the theory behind these things in such a way that would make it NOT appropriate for academic work.


If it was easy and publicly available, there would be no money to be made from it ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:11 am 
Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 2:35 pm
Posts: 33
jackrabbit wrote:

If it was easy and publicly available, there would be no money to be made from it ;)


I didn't realise there was much money to made from it tbh :o


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group