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ruled based + montecarlo, is it a viable option?
https://poker-ai.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2655		 Page 3 of 3
Author:  Nose [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ruled based + montecarlo, is it a viable option?
spears wrote:
Quote:
I ask seriously, was that ironic?


Yeah. I think my second suggestion (card free rules system) is much better than my first (modify MCTS). Right now, MCTS looks like the quicker and easier option to you, but I'm wondering if you will still be thinking that in 2 months time. If I had a poker guy I'd build a card free rules system. It's not hard.


That highly depends on the knowledge of the poker guy and his ability to generalize his thoughts. Too much knowledge might actually be hindering - even if the edge was greater
Author:  fisherking [ Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ruled based + montecarlo, is it a viable option?
Nose wrote:
shalako wrote:
How does MC, MCTS, NN etc handle ranges? I never hear anything about that which I do not understand at all. My whole HUNL bot revolves around it. [...]


simulation based bots aren't aware of the concept or ranges. the range (or better probability distribution) in a given spot is more or less given by the probabilities for all hands to reach that spot. these probabilities are balanced (preventing exploitability) and take into consideration the probability distribution of the best possible opponent

EDIT: yay, that post made me a regular member :-)



this was enlightening for me! ty, regular member! :)
Author:  shalako [ Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ruled based + montecarlo, is it a viable option?
Quote:
Well, from what you say it seems to me that you have pretty much figured the problem out in the right terms, I think it might only be a question of fine tuning for you now.


Yeah the problem is that the fine tuning takes the longest to do as the little things make the biggest difference.


Quote:
I still think it is a pretty complex problem because especially on the river that decision is the result of all the process the bot is gone thru (assigning a range pre, deciding what part of the range the guy is carrying on on the flop, how much he folds, how much he herocalls, what should our bluff freq. be and so on), and this seems so far away for me as we are just starting the project, while you seem to be at a very good point in rule based decision making.


As a whole its not really complex (not like MCTS). Getting the range correct pre for me is the biggest hurdle as it obviously affects the rest of the hand and if your wrong it could really cost some big EV. As I mentioned previously the biggest problem is the bluffing ranges of the villain. Villains can have identical stats but completely different bluff ranges which has caused me some big headaches. Generally it seems most decent players will 3B bluff hands that can take a call and not just total trash. So SC's, blockers, etc.

Post flop is fairly straightforward and it comes down to basic hand combinatorics and range reduction. So of his range what % is value, air, draws. And if he is not leading the betting then what part of his range can be called etc. On each street its going to get tighter and tighter as the range he can bet for value gets smaller and smaller until your left with a very small number of hands that he could possibly reach the river with. So on the river your left with value, bluff catchers and missed draws. So now its just a matter of running his range vs hand and its gets easier to figure out what to do..either to bluff catch, bluff or value bet. But..its not just a matter of equity but also a matter of hand combinatorics to figure out how to extract max value. Like if his range is mostly missed draws you would be way better off letting him try to bluff at you vs leading out. You get the idea..
Author:  fisherking [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: ruled based + montecarlo, is it a viable option?
Hey guys, we are still working on the thing and now I am getting a programmer to work on the "stealth" part of the project.

He is suggesting that for our setup we should use two different physical machines, with one of the two grabbing poker data from the client via OCR, but he says that the OCR inaccuracy in number recognition can be a big problem (words, not much so as we have a very small vocabulary in poker).

I have noticed thou that this isn't accounted as a big problem in general by the botting community, how is that so? Am I getting something wrong here? Maybe that is because most people do the DLL injection thing and or similar and not the OCR trick?
Thank you!
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