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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:45 pm 
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wow, that's very insightful! :o
Many thanks

Considering this happened 3 years ago, their bot detection methods probably improved a lot by now...

I wonder what do they mean by
Quote:
We conducted several tests to determine if a human was present at the controls while Quicktob.exe was running. These tests would have gone unnoticed by a human player, but would have confused an automated software player, rendering it unable to continue playing.

Tweaking layout in real time? Some invisible layer over poker tables, which bot picked up? Switching button places?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:55 pm 
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pretty sure they either changed the position of the cards or changed their colors..


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:17 pm 
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So you need a self-teaching OCR then?
Something that would build table maps itself and then rebuild them should it notice any problems?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:49 pm 
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OCR would be the best solution, I guess.
My bot is currently scanning the screen scraping positions in a range from -10 to +10 pixels in case it doesn't find the cards for some seconds.
However, I think that if Pokerstars flagged you and really wants to see whether you are botting then your chances are really small.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:51 pm 
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Biggest mystery for me is safely communicating between VM and host, how to send traffic so that it would be untraceable...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:03 pm 
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What about rootkitting the executable? That should hide the process.

Has anyone had any problems when using a bot made in Java?

If stars asks for a source code, why not send something similar but functionally different :D?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:17 pm 
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As I wrote, they surely had the files before asking me to send them :D
However, they had enough proof without them.

Why would you want to send the data from the guest to the host?
Just screen scrape the vm!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:24 pm 
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Blub478 wrote:
As I wrote, they surely had the files before asking me to send them :D
However, they had enough proof without them.

Why would you want to send the data from the guest to the host?
Just screen scrape the vm!


Well.. I heard a case where they blocked an account, asked for the source code of the program. User refused to send the source code explaining that the program does not do anything against their terms. The argument led to a result where the money from the account was refunded, but account remained blocked until the user would send them the source code. If they would have any solid evidence, then this kind of a thing should not happen...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Ok, thats new to me!
But of course, if Poker Stars would admit they copied data from any personal computer they would be really f***** :D
Guess they wouldn't commit that crime but even if you would send them fake source code - advisors are also against their terms of agreement!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:43 pm 
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Blub478 wrote:
Ok, thats new to me!
But of course, if Poker Stars would admit they copied data from any personal computer they would be really f***** :D
Guess they wouldn't commit that crime but even if you would send them fake source code - advisors are also against their terms of agreement!


There is a list of programs that are approved by PokerStars, even PokerStove is now one of them :)
http://www.pokerstars.ee/en/poker/room/prohibited/


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:44 pm 
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A lot of what they're doing is illegal, so they can't straight up confess that they know you're botting, but they put you in a situation where you can't really prove you're not.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:52 pm 
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I doubt anything they do is really illegal. When you agree to their terms & conditions and download & install their software they are allowed to do a lot of things. And they are openly admitting that they are scanning for other programs. If you don't like it, don't play there.
Most of the other data they use is usage data of the services they offer, information that you willingly gave them and that they own and can do whatever they want with. Including identifying outliers and finding bots.

_________________
Cheers.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:54 pm 
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In dubio pro reo doesn't count for Poker Stars, right? :D


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:13 pm 
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Coffee4tw wrote:
I doubt anything they do is really illegal. When you agree to their terms & conditions and download & install their software they are allowed to do a lot of things. And they are openly admitting that they are scanning for other programs. If you don't like it, don't play there.
Most of the other data they use is usage data of the services they offer, information that you willingly gave them and that they own and can do whatever they want with. Including identifying outliers and finding bots.

Doesn't exactly work like that. You can put a line that you own my soul in forum terms, doesn't mean it will hold in court even if I click "I agree".
Then again who would go to court knowing that they probably got banned for a reason.. :D


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:51 am 
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eugen wrote:
Doesn't exactly work like that. You can put a line that you own my soul in forum terms, doesn't mean it will hold in court even if I click "I agree".
Then again who would go to court knowing that they probably got banned for a reason.. :D


exactly!

this brings the south park episode of humancentipoad into my mind :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:02 pm 
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eugen wrote:
Biggest mystery for me is safely communicating between VM and host, how to send traffic so that it would be untraceable...

As far as I know it isn't possible to sniff or even detect outgoing traffic on Windows without any help of some filter drivers. By that I mean packets and times of them sent out by VM. Only thing they can do is listing open TCP connections, which they are doing too. And they could sniff incoming traffic.

So you can mask the incoming traffic by minimizing the amount of data, crypting it, sending it at steady intervals so there are no timing tells, use hooks to prevent PS listing connections/sniffing, make it look like it's a remote postgresql server or something and so on.
Run your interface inside PokerTracker process and use some type of pinging to send actions to the VM :D

Or as Blub478 said, do everything on the host - scrape and interact with the VM only.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:04 pm 
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Blub478 wrote:
Here you go

Quote:
Hello XXX,

Because we have been unable to reach you by telephone despite several attempts to do so, we will conduct the interview by Email.

We believe that you may have been developing and using a prohibited application in conjunction with your play on PokerStars. To help us make a determination about this, please answer the following questions.

1. Please detail your relationship with player 'Player'. Name the player by full name if you can, and describe how you know the player in detail.

2. Please detail your relationship with player ‘Player2'. Name the player by full name if you can, and describe how you know the player in detail.

3. Before your account shutdown, we noted that you suddenly "stepped down" from your normal high stakes [My preferred game Full Ring] to play lower stakes [My preferred game Heads Up]. What was the impetus for this change in your game selection?

4. You seem to have used two different machines for your play, one machine for high stakes full ring, and a different machine for your low stakes heads up play. Why was this?

5. One of the machines in question, the one used to play the heads up games, was a Virtual Machine. Why did you find it necessary to use a virtual machine for your heads up play, but not your high stakes play?

6. The playing profile for each of the game selections was rather distinctive and consistent, yet they differed from each other. For example, your reaction time in the heads up games was very fast and very consistent, while your full ring game you played slower and with more variance in your action times. Your tables were of varying sizes and positions when you played high stakes, but were meticulously sized and positioned the same way every time for heads up. Can you explain these differences?

7. You stopped playing low stakes heads up Razz on [A nice summer day]. Why did you stop? What happened to the virtual machine you were using after that date?

8. You were observed using several unusual applications, predominantly during your heads up low stakes play. Please explain your reason for the use of each of the following:

TeamViewer
Camtasia Studio
Embarcadero RAD Studio

TeamViewer continued to be used beyond October 12th. Whose machine were you remote-controlling, and/or who was remote-controlling you?

9. Who is [My Real name]? What is the meaning of [2 friends]?

10. The following application was observed on your machine:

c:\users\[blub]\desktop\8.5 - ps\debug\win32\icq.exe

It carried several version numbers, and varied in file size. What is the purpose of this file? Did you supply a copy of this program to any other player? What is the meaning of its name, ICQ? Would you be willing to supply a copy of the executable, and a copy of the source code that we could compile ourselves, in order to verify the purpose of this application?

-> At this point I am sure they copied the files that stupid fckers


11. We conducted several tests to determine if a human was present at the controls while Quicktob.exe was running. These tests would have gone unnoticed by a human player, but would have confused an automated software player, rendering it unable to continue playing. These tests were failed multiple times at low stakes heads up, but passed during high stakes play. Please explain.

Thank you for your cooperation in answering these questions.

Sincerely,



Did you get any warnings or did they just blocked the account?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:23 pm 
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One day my account was frozen without any previous warnings


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:47 pm 
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eugen wrote:
is it possible to get proccess .exe signature or checksum or something like that?
i.e. if I rename bring.exe to skype.exe, will they know it's not skype?

wish this was being asked in a private forum.... :(


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:04 pm 
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eugen wrote:
Doesn't exactly work like that. You can put a line that you own my soul in forum terms, doesn't mean it will hold in court even if I click "I agree".
Assuming you put a copyright notice on your software... How awsome would it feel to sue stars for software piracy after their client sends your .exe over ftp?


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