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Legality
https://poker-ai.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2605		 Page 2 of 2
Author:  cantina [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legality
My point exactly. It's why I'm asking these questions. ;) Given the broad definition and jurisdictional reach of fraud laws in the UK I'm wondering where the line is drawn (so I know not to cross it).

I think it's safe to say that botting in and of itself (without collusion) isn't illegal. I'm wondering, however, if somebody were to lease their bot or employ somebody to run it under their own account, if that would be considered fraud?
Author:  spears [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Legality
Why do you think leasing a bot to someone else is a crime when running one of your own isn't?

I don't have hard facts, but I rather doubt that the universal jurisdiction provisions of uk law would be used against a foreign citizen running or leasing bots. The only cases of that legislation ever being used that I heard of involve child abuse, war crimes, drug smuggling and other very serious crimes. Compared to the US, the UK is fairly lenient in general.
Author:  cantina [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legality
spears wrote:
Why do you think leasing a bot to someone else is a crime when running one of your own isn't?

Are there profit sharing laws in the UK regarding gambling winnings? If I recall correctly, there are in other countries.

spears wrote:
Compared to the US, the UK is fairly lenient in general.

Generally, you're probably right. In the case of fraud, by definition, it seems the UK isn't. Then there's the question of how this can apply to TOS violations. Elsewhere, it would/could be a civil matter, but given the nature of the law, if a casino decided to take action would it become a criminal matter in the UK? It's a bit like they have this catch-all reach, but you're hoping they never use it. That's not the type of gambling I like to do. ;)
Author:  flop+2cards [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legality
Nasher wrote:
http://tinyurl.com/q5qjz6k


Quote:
One x transferring criminal property - contrary to Sec 327(1) of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002.


The winnings from botting is not income received by criminal way?
Author:  spears [ Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legality
- You answered my question with one of your own.
- I've never heard of profit sharing laws about gambling. edit http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forum ... p?t=206804
- Why are you worrying about all this now? Is it because you are leasing out a bot for the first time? To a brit?
- http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2 ... bots-poker
Author:  spears [ Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legality
Quote:
Elsewhere, it would/could be a civil matter, but given the nature of the law, if a casino decided to take action would it become a criminal matter in the UK? It's a bit like they have this catch-all reach, but you're hoping they never use it. That's not the type of gambling I like to do. ;)


I understand the worry but somehow I just don't see this happening.

First of all the casino would have to convince the CPS that TOS violation is fraud. It hasn't happened yet so why would it happen in the future? Then there is the issue of jurisdiction. The law appears to say that fraud can be prosecuted in the UK regardless of who commits the offence or where it is committed. If this were actually carried out millions of foreign citizens would be extradited to the UK every year to be prosecuted. But that doesn't happen.
Author:  flop+2cards [ Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legality
I remembered the ebay fraud story
Quote:
eBay alleged that what Hogan did to earn the sting operation and the knock at his door by the FBI was to rig eBay's system so that it falsely credited him for sales he did not generate

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ebay-the-fbi-shawn-hogan-and-brian-dunning-2013-4#ixzz2hS0byjR0
Just breaking the T&C?
Author:  cantina [ Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legality
They were criminally indicted for "cookie stuffing." They essentially created false referrals, causing the companies to pay them for work they did not do and (additional) traffic that did not exist. It's a bit like a lawyer billing somebody for hours he didn't work (which is blatant fraud) or billing somebody for work that he had nothing to do with. They haven't been convicted yet either. I'll be interested to hear how that pans out, given the technicalities.

IMO, "cookie stuffing" is a far cry from poker botting. Had they gotten bots to do their work for them (not creating false work), even if it had been a violation of the T&C, I don't think that would be considered criminal fraud, at least not in America.
Author:  cantina [ Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legality
spears wrote:
First of all the casino would have to convince the CPS that TOS violation is fraud. It hasn't happened yet so why would it happen in the future?

My point is that just about anything under UK law can be considered fraud, regardless of TOS violations. ;)
Author:  nefton [ Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legality
In my country, poker in general is prohibited. While not for the players, but for the poker companies. The only legal requirement for me - to pay taxes and not be engaged in carding. And why is me (citizen of Ukraine) to obey the laws of UK? (pokerstars)
Author:  cantina [ Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Legality
Because they have bigger guns? :) It's not so much a question of why, rather just that it's written. i.e. It's within the bounds of their policies to enforce certain laws anywhere in the world, one of which happens to be very ambiguously defined. Realistically, unless you're doing something that really pisses them off and making a lot of money doing it, you likely don't have to worry about it.
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