Poker-AI.org

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-31T11:44:01+00:00

Nasher wrote:

Interesting. Wouldn't the change in DLL throw flag with casino, having a different hash tag?

During testing/development, yeah - but that's not important (can be done through VPN from a throaway account). Once you've developed your own client, you're controlling which warning are sent home though

Statistics: Posted by PolarBear — Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:44 am

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-30T20:27:35+00:00

Quote:

I will discuss the methods but not in the public forum.

So, how do I get access to this forum?

Statistics: Posted by Seikez — Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:27 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-30T18:43:37+00:00

Running bots on PS/FTP is not much of an issue. All of the methods posted above are certainly doable but not the best way imo. The solution is not hard. I did it with limited skills and its been fool proof for the last year and a half. I used the same methods back in the day when Party Poker was king and bot detection first started becoming a problem. I will discuss the methods but not in the public forum. Just think outside of the box as the answer is pretty simple.

Statistics: Posted by shalako — Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-30T18:31:17+00:00

Nasher wrote:

Interesting. Wouldn't the change in DLL throw flag with casino, having a different hash tag?

for sure!

Statistics: Posted by winnie — Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:31 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-30T18:07:49+00:00

Interesting. Wouldn't the change in DLL throw flag with casino, having a different hash tag?

Statistics: Posted by cantina — Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:07 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-30T12:32:47+00:00

Nasher wrote:

PolarBear wrote:

as it (the DLL) is on your machine, should be circumventable.

That sounds like a short quip for a long/hard process. How do you circumvent SSL?

One idea would be - if they're using a standard third-party DLL for SSL, the lib should be well-documented. You could then create a stub DLL which has the same public interface and which logs all traffic passed to it (before it's encrypted) and then sends it to the original DLL so that it gets encrypted.

Statistics: Posted by PolarBear — Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:32 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-30T09:03:30+00:00

PolarBear wrote:

as it (the DLL) is on your machine, should be circumventable.

That sounds like a short quip for a long/hard process. How do you circumvent SSL?

Statistics: Posted by cantina — Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:03 am

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-28T21:45:00+00:00

Seikez wrote:

Quote:

and for example go with writing your own client altogether

Oh wow, how about that for a radically different approach from screen scraping! Great idea, might be the ideal solution. But that must mean the encrypted communication protocol between poker client and poker site has to be analyzed and recreated in my bot. You would have to be a real superhacker to do something like that. How do you do it? Please!

That is something I will definitely have a look at for bot ver2.0, sometime in the distant future. In the mean time, I think I will just follow the advice and avoid PS and other difficult sites.

They should be using some kind of network protocol, which should be reversable (should be fairly easy if the client is in Java/.NET, since then you can reverse the binary and just see what's going on). On top of that, they'll probably be using SSL, which, as it (the DLL) is on your machine, should be circumventable.

Statistics: Posted by PolarBear — Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-28T19:51:54+00:00

Quote:

and for example go with writing your own client altogether

Statistics: Posted by Seikez — Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:51 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-28T19:06:01+00:00

@Seikez

I don't think a solid detection avoidance with regard to screen scraping is doable. If a site wants to detect a screen scraper, they've got a ton of easy way to do that (with manipulating pixels, colors etc.) that you just can't prepare for in advance. So the answer is to either avoid screen scraping altogether (and for example go with writing your own client altogether - way better approach imo since then you don't have to deal with the often buggy and crashy casino software at all) or to stick to sites which don't proactively search for botters.

Statistics: Posted by PolarBear — Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:06 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-28T17:36:38+00:00

Hi,

I wouldn't plan on running on stars if I was you.

If you spend a few years a developing state of the art setup - then maybe - but even then there is a good chance they will bust you.

There are much easier places.

-PeppaPig

Statistics: Posted by PeppaPig — Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:36 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-28T15:44:06+00:00

Quote:

I'm not a rootkit expert, but as far as I know, if it's done right the poker client has little chance to detect it. Having said that, the more popular route for screen scraping nowadays is just to have the client in VM and control the VM from the host (VM engines have VNC interfaces to do that). This way you're 100% legit, apart from the flag raised by running in the VM.

As mentioned, I have planned on using screen scraping with Bring to get state from the poker client. But I made that choice because the alternatives I could find to screen scraping all seemed so difficult to implement, adapt to new sites and to maintain. But I don't know, maybe screen scraping is outdated and I should really use some other method. What is state of the art today?

Quote:

Detecting is easy, I'd be more concerned about solving them in the limited time available.

When you say detecting is easy, do you mean by using a windows hook or with screen scraping? As I said previously, I haven't started researching this yet, so any info I can get here will be helpful.

Statistics: Posted by Seikez — Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:44 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-28T14:34:52+00:00

i'm not talking about specific room

Statistics: Posted by flop+2cards — Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:34 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-28T13:46:17+00:00

flop+2cards wrote:

LOLWorld wrote:

"high stakes" at playmoney

it is best of price/efforts ratio

2nd place — nodeposit bonuses
3rd place — instant bonuses

Which room are you talking about?

Statistics: Posted by LOLWorld — Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:46 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-28T12:30:50+00:00

Seikez wrote:

Quote:

I haven't read that Bring howto, but, unless it involves installing some kind of rootkit, it should be deteactable.

According to the howto, Bring should run under another user so the poker client (PC) user cannot access it's process information, also Bring is "hidden" in a folder owned by that other user and which cannot be accessed by the PC user.

Obviously, this is not perfect stealth. The PC has to run with admin privileges, so it can take command of the folder where Bring hides and have a look inside, thereby discovering Bring and raising the bot flag. One solution might be to hide the Bring folder with a rootkit, but I guess also rootkits can be detected. I know very little about rootkits, so please correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:

Plus, you'd need to solve the PS's captchas.
Yes, that is a big problem. I haven't started studying this, so I don't know if it is possible to detect captchas with screen scraping. I think that if I hook on to the PC process I could detect a popup window opening. But that would require a process running in the same environment as the PC, which I think the PC could detect. How do I solve this?

Detecting is easy, I'd be more concerned about solving them in the limited time available.

Statistics: Posted by PolarBear — Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:30 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-28T08:51:08+00:00

Quote:

I haven't read that Bring howto, but, unless it involves installing some kind of rootkit, it should be deteactable.

Quote:

Plus, you'd need to solve the PS's captchas.

Yes, that is a big problem. I haven't started studying this, so I don't know if it is possible to detect captchas with screen scraping. I think that if I hook on to the PC process I could detect a popup window opening. But that would require a process running in the same environment as the PC, which I think the PC could detect. How do I solve this?

Statistics: Posted by Seikez — Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:51 am

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-27T23:53:48+00:00

LOLWorld wrote:

"high stakes" at playmoney

it is best of price/efforts ratio

2nd place — nodeposit bonuses
3rd place — instant bonuses

Statistics: Posted by flop+2cards — Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:53 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-27T19:33:46+00:00

You have some "high stakes" at playmoney tables. You'll find people playing more tight because you need to be a little bit serious to win enough chips to reach those limits.
There are also rooms where you can win real money by playing play money so the level might be better.

Statistics: Posted by LOLWorld — Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:33 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-27T16:08:09+00:00

Seikez wrote:

Quote:

OH is ridiculously easy to detect, so it can be applied only on sites which don't do any bot checks.

Should be no problem for me, I hope. I plan on running the poker client in one VM, and OH and my bot in another.
That way, the only botting sw running in the same Vm as the poker client will be Bring, which has a howto on stealth.
Do you think this is stealthy enough for PS?

I haven't read that Bring howto, but, unless it involves installing some kind of rootkit, it should be deteactable. Also, there were reports of PS screwing with screen scrapers by randomly changing pixels colors/locations. Plus, you'd need to solve the PS's captchas.

Statistics: Posted by PolarBear — Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-27T12:59:03+00:00

Quote:

OH is ridiculously easy to detect, so it can be applied only on sites which don't do any bot checks.

Statistics: Posted by Seikez — Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:59 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-27T11:53:23+00:00

Seikez wrote:

Quote:

You can use Open Holdem on some sites I think

Not sure what you mean by that spears.

AFAIK, Openholdem is alive and kicking and can be use on most (or all?) sites. I was actually planning on using Openholdem as a screen scraper engine for my bot via a user DLL plugged in on OH. Unless someone has a better idea.

OH is ridiculously easy to detect, so it can be applied only on sites which don't do any bot checks.

Statistics: Posted by PolarBear — Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:53 am

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-27T10:25:27+00:00

Quote:

You can use Open Holdem on some sites I think

Statistics: Posted by Seikez — Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:25 am

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-27T10:10:07+00:00

You can use Open Holdem on some sites I think

Statistics: Posted by spears — Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:10 am

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-27T09:09:42+00:00

OK guys! Thanks for your input so far, and please keep it coming!

My latest, firmer and slightly revised, planning for testing now looks like this:

a) A first step for off-line testing will be to use PokerAcademy 2.5. I will use combot as a base for a C# to meerkat interface (see here: http://poker-ai.org/archive/www.pokerai.org/pf3/viewtopicfd37.html?f=3&t=3393)

b) Haven't decided yet if I will use opentestbed as a next step for off-line testing: http://code.google.com/p/opentestbed (is this project dead?)

c) First step for on-line testing will be play money on some site where stealth is not so important.

d) Then testing on same lo stealth site with real money micro stakes, and then progressively move to larger stakes when I am confident my bot is reliable.

e) When everything works and I have a hight stealth setup, I will start playing to win on some easy sites and then on difficult sites like PS.

Your comments please?

Statistics: Posted by Seikez — Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:09 am

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-26T15:29:06+00:00

Quote:

Hmm, I wonder how similar that is to playing with real money? Don't you find that people play much loser with play money than they do with real hard-earned money?

Yes it is very loose but that is good for bot programming. This is good as you will have all the bases covered even for unrealistic scenarios. I have found HU SNG and Cash to be fairly normal but 6max and 9max can get a bit crazy.

I have been doing this for ten years and I think it is the best way to do it although it is slow. Usually the problems show up quickly and it does not take as long as you would think however.

Statistics: Posted by shalako — Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:29 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-26T14:39:42+00:00

Seikez wrote:

Quote:

I have always tested my bot in play money games.

Hmm, I wonder how similar that is to playing with real money? Don't you find that people play much loser with play money than they do with real hard-earned money?

Quote:

micros...

Yes winnie, I totally agree, I think! But what does it mean? micros... ????

1c/2c or 2c/4c tables at a room you want to bot

Statistics: Posted by winnie — Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:39 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-25T20:10:00+00:00

Quote:

I have always tested my bot in play money games.

Hmm, I wonder how similar that is to playing with real money? Don't you find that people play much loser with play money than they do with real hard-earned money?

Quote:

micros...

Yes winnie, I totally agree, I think! But what does it mean? micros... ????

Statistics: Posted by Seikez — Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:10 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-25T17:49:27+00:00

Hi,
If someone is planning to write a poker server/client in C# as a testbed I'm willing to collaborate. I will need one in the future as my bot uses decision trees so I will need to test specific hand combinations, lines and boards over large numbers so "live" testing is not very useful in my case.

Statistics: Posted by jerrys — Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:49 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-25T15:42:03+00:00

micros...

Statistics: Posted by winnie — Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:42 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-24T15:36:25+00:00

I have always tested my bot in play money games. I have found its better to do that as you see a wide range of player types and actions. I let it play for hours and take notes on mistakes and situations that I had not programmed for.

Statistics: Posted by shalako — Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:36 pm

Re: How to test my bot?

2013-07-24T12:53:54+00:00

http://www.poker-ai.org/archive/www.pok ... lit=zeromq

Statistics: Posted by spears — Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:53 pm

How to test my bot?

2013-07-24T10:36:16+00:00

I am working on a C# bot and now need to setup a testing environment. I have searched the net but most threads I find are several years old and things seem to change fast in botting. I therefore suspect much of what I have found is totally outdated.

Currently, my planning looks like this:

a) A first step is to use PokerAcademy 2.5 for testing. (my thinking is that if I can't beat the bots in PokerAcademy, I should stay away from the poker sites)

b) Next step might be opentestbed: http://code.google.com/p/opentestbed

The problem is that i find very little technical information on either of these.

How can I get a bot written in C# to play in PA and in opentestbed?

Are there any strong bots to play against in opentestbed?

Are there any other alternatives for testing?

How do you test your bots?

Statistics: Posted by Seikez — Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:36 am