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 Post subject: Re: HU PLO bot
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:49 am 
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Well that's obviously complete bs. It's a standard Silverlight app as anyone can verify.


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 Post subject: Re: HU PLO bot
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:01 am 
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Feel free to post the link once again. I will edit the OP back if nobody else brings any reason for something suspicious.

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 Post subject: Re: HU PLO bot
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:42 pm 
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http://174.129.2.127/

If you want to see what it does, you can download and decompile it:

http://174.129.2.127/ClientBin/PokerClient.xap

(it's not even obfuscated)


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 Post subject: Re: HU PLO bot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:08 pm 
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Links don't work. Did you stop your web bot?


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 Post subject: Re: HU PLO bot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:16 pm 
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It hasn't been online for a while. It was hosted on Amazon EC2 so it was not free to keep it running.


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 Post subject: Re: HU PLO bot
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:06 pm 
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Copy+paste from the "Hello thread"

"Hi guys im new.

Reasons for being here.
Crushed PLO 50 and 100.
Ended up blowing it all + more at PLO 500 and 1K.

Havent played the whole year. Most data is gone since i completely throwed poker out of my life (HHS, tracking software etc). Probably not gonna do. I feel the best without playing, in the end i cant handle the swings.
Anyway i started on the IT-University in my country.

So im a noob at coding. But im interested in making a HU PLO bot.
I did read that someone made a HU PLO bot here and you could play against it right?
I guess i could help with leaks and optimizing it when data is analyzed.

I wanna put my knowlegde of PLO into a HU bot which in the end can crush small stakes since PLO is relatively easy at these levels."

I know that coding + botting is a difficult task. But i have to start somewhere. I did read this thread which was the main reason that i registrered because i wanted to play your bot, since someone wrote that it has solid foundations.

So can i play the bot you made ?
Lets say i play it for something like 25-50K hands, if i beat it (Which i obv should) then it could be awesome to fix the leaks and imitate an even a "more optimized" strategy.


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 Post subject: Re: HU PLO bot
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:51 pm 
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I recommend you read up how that bot was created. IIRC it was created using CFRM. Once you have done that I think you will agree that poker expert input is quite a small part of the enterprise.


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 Post subject: Re: HU PLO bot
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:58 pm 
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spears wrote:
I recommend you read up how that bot was created. IIRC it was created using CFRM. Once you have done that I think you will agree that poker expert input is quite a small part of the enterprise.


Well i have done a lot of data-knowlegde research, so i have saved like 100 pages on the botting topic, and currently reading it.
I did not mean that the way i play PLO is a vital part of this bot. What i meant was that based on lets say 25k hands my stats should be pretty similar. VPIP, 3bet,4bet,5bet ranges both preflop and postflop, shoving on flop, bluffing with bluffers, showdown % etc.

What i was imagining was to tweak some of the bots stats to be more "optimized" mathematically. And i was thinking that a lot of it could be done by determining the pre and postflop stats.

I have not yet reached this "CFRM", can you provide me a link to a thread so i can read immediately?

I am admirering your guys skills in programming


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 Post subject: Re: HU PLO bot
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:24 pm 
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This is the start http://pokerai.org/pf3/viewtopic.php?f= ... t=johanson, but there is plenty more you can find with the search function.


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 Post subject: Re: HU PLO bot
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:46 am 
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LevansPolka wrote:
spears wrote:
I recommend you read up how that bot was created. IIRC it was created using CFRM. Once you have done that I think you will agree that poker expert input is quite a small part of the enterprise.


Well i have done a lot of data-knowlegde research, so i have saved like 100 pages on the botting topic, and currently reading it.
I did not mean that the way i play PLO is a vital part of this bot. What i meant was that based on lets say 25k hands my stats should be pretty similar. VPIP, 3bet,4bet,5bet ranges both preflop and postflop, shoving on flop, bluffing with bluffers, showdown % etc.

What i was imagining was to tweak some of the bots stats to be more "optimized" mathematically. And i was thinking that a lot of it could be done by determining the pre and postflop stats.

I have not yet reached this "CFRM", can you provide me a link to a thread so i can read immediately?

I am admirering your guys skills in programming


If you're a NL/PLO God then there is certainly useful input you might be able to give, but it will be of a high-level nature. Forget about 'tweaking' preflop stats. It's not feasible to build assumptions about 'correct' preflop stats into a bot given the way state-of-the-art bots work.

Some questions you might be able to answer (e.g. w.r.t. betting abstractions):

Do you think that making bet/raise sizes depend only on public information is a good idea (i.e. don't vary your raise size with hole cards)? If not, what raises might you consider (i.e. what fractions of the pot)?

What you think about over bets (betting/raising by more than the pot without going all-in)? What about min-raising, do you ever do it?

When do you consider yourself pot committed (i.e. when will you either fold or go all-in if the opponent makes any further raises)? Related to this, at what blind level do you treat the game as push/fold? 10BB, 5BB?


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 Post subject: Re: HU PLO bot
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:58 am 
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ok|select wrote:
LevansPolka wrote:
spears wrote:
I recommend you read up how that bot was created. IIRC it was created using CFRM. Once you have done that I think you will agree that poker expert input is quite a small part of the enterprise.


Well i have done a lot of data-knowlegde research, so i have saved like 100 pages on the botting topic, and currently reading it.
I did not mean that the way i play PLO is a vital part of this bot. What i meant was that based on lets say 25k hands my stats should be pretty similar. VPIP, 3bet,4bet,5bet ranges both preflop and postflop, shoving on flop, bluffing with bluffers, showdown % etc.

What i was imagining was to tweak some of the bots stats to be more "optimized" mathematically. And i was thinking that a lot of it could be done by determining the pre and postflop stats.

I have not yet reached this "CFRM", can you provide me a link to a thread so i can read immediately?

I am admirering your guys skills in programming


If you're a NL/PLO God then there is certainly useful input you might be able to give, but it will be of a high-level nature. Forget about 'tweaking' preflop stats. It's not feasible to build assumptions about 'correct' preflop stats into a bot given the way state-of-the-art bots work.

Some questions you might be able to answer (e.g. w.r.t. betting abstractions):

Do you think that making bet/raise sizes depend only on public information is a good idea (i.e. don't vary your raise size with hole cards)? If not, what raises might you consider (i.e. what fractions of the pot)?

What you think about over bets (betting/raising by more than the pot without going all-in)? What about min-raising, do you ever do it?

When do you consider yourself pot committed (i.e. when will you decide either to fold or to put in as many chips in as necessary to get to showdown)? Related to this, at what blind level do you treat the game as push/fold? 10BB, 5BB?


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 Post subject: Re: HU PLO bot
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:09 pm 
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Quote:
If you're a NL/PLO God then there is certainly useful input you might be able to give, but it will be of a high-level nature. Forget about 'tweaking' preflop stats. It's not feasible to build assumptions about 'correct' preflop stats into a bot given the way state-of-the-art bots work.

Some questions you might be able to answer (e.g. w.r.t. betting abstractions):

Do you think that making bet/raise sizes depend only on public information is a good idea (i.e. don't vary your raise size with hole cards)? If not, what raises might you consider (i.e. what fractions of the pot)?:


Firstly i am by no means a NLHE nor PLO God.
Furthermore i am not playing NLHE at all, havent played it for years so im not the right one to ask about NLHE.

I dont think there is a true answer to this. I would like you to explain a bit further your request here?
But i will try to answer it the way i understood it:

Assuming HU PLO
Firstly it goods to have a general idea of how we play. But its hard to truly standardize your game 100 percent since it depends so much on the villain (opponent) we play. Is he an aggressive maniac? Is he a conservative player? Is he a very weak player? Different strategies are adapted vs the different types of your opponent.

Anyway. So lets say i 3bet xx percentages preflop. On the flop i would make a c/b (continuation bet) for around 2/3 pot. Our c/b on the flop most atleast have a percentages of 70 percent. This is how the stats would look in general i guess.

But again it varys so much on the opponent. You could also have the c/b 1/2 of the pot. 70 percent of the time we are going to make this c/b whether we have a monster or not. So we are aiming to make the same play both when having monsters but also when we are bluffing. In the end this play should be profitable.

But sometimes you figure out that some players folds more often to a 1/3 c/b because they think that this shows that we want the villain to call. So its more player dependent than it is based on our actual holding. And also during a match you quickly get the feeling of what ranges the villan could play and have in 3 and 4betted pots. So if i had understood the essence of your question - i will not vary our c/b on the hole cards. I would do the c/b 70 percent of the times whether we have a monster or not.

But since this is from the bots point of view i have learned that it is hard to adjust to your opponent right?
But if it is somehow possible then i would have like 3 styles of play, or lets say 3 gears of play.

Gear 1 : Is the standarded and most "optimal general" (if such description fits) play. 3betting xx % preflop. c/b 2/3 flop, c/b turn xx %
Gear 2 : Could be against the very weak and conservative player who folds a lot. Then we want to apply pressure oftent as possible by assuming hes range.
Gear 3 : would be like : If we play an opponent who 3bets us +25 percent over a sample size of lets say 50 hands then we would like to shift to a very aggresive style an increase our 4betting. This would lead to an increased variance but we have to adjust and get it in lighter.

Quote:
What you think about over bets (betting/raising by more than the pot without going all-in)? What about min-raising, do you ever do it?

Overbets is not possible in PLO, so cant really comment on that. The min raising is way way more interesting. Yes i did it alot in very specific situations.

Lets say i raise 3xbb preflop villain just calls.
Flop is AA6.
Villain checks, i c/bet 1/3 of the pot. Villain now c/r (check raises) us. He represents that he have trip aces. In PLO HU a lot of people do 3bet preflop with hands that have an A+some kind of connection, could be A1065 (in general thats not a strong enough holding to 3bet in my opinion), so what I do here is trying to steal the pot with a min-raise. Why ?
a) I dont think he has an A in the first place
b) I dont think that if he has an A that he would c/r the flop. If he has an A i think he would represent weakness, and let me fire a barrel on the flop and turn, where he then would try to ship it in.
This does not mean that we would try this everytime because we would obviously give him credit xx percentage of the time.
But remember we want to make the same play when we actually have the A, so villain cant figure out whether we are bluffing or having the monster since we make the exact same play.

An even better example and more succesfull (for me) is the following:
Again raising 3xbb preflop and villain calls. Flop is now 2c6c,10c.
So there is a flush on the board. Villain checks, I c/b 1/3 again to represent that I have the flush. He now c/r us again, why would he do that with a flopped flush with no scare cards, and in a small pot? So here again i would try to min-raise to steal it.

If i have the Ac without having the flop, i would try this bluff alsmost every time. Since we have the blocker to the nuts, then we know villain cant have the nuts. But obv some players dont understand this type of play, they will call you down with any kind of flush or 2p or set on this kind of board, these type of players should we adjust to by bluffing way less. We want to extract values from them. But bluffing in PLO with blockers, and trying to represent the nuts is an amazing and good play in my opinion and it worked out a lot of the times for me. But remember again it is still dependable on the opponent.

Quote:
When do you consider yourself pot committed (i.e. when will you either fold or go all-in if the opponent makes any further raises)? Related to this, at what blind level do you treat the game as push/fold? 10BB, 5BB?


Hmm a general quick answer would be that i mostly feal pot commited in 4betted preflop pots. Since this is PLO then at PLO 100 most 4betted preflop pots goes like this : 3xbb, 3bet to 9xbb, 4bet to 27xbb and villain does almost never fold. So flop is 54xbb and since our 4bet is the top of our range i would get it in almost always.

Hopefully our bot dont need to play a push/fold game. But in PLO playing with the 20-40bb and raising 20 percent preflop and 3betting 10-12percent preflop is a push fold game. Short stacking strategy in PLO would look something like above mentioned. A lot of the same short stackers you see on Pokerstars plays like this, since it is the easiest and best way to get supernova. One of the players on 2p2 did write a "guide" to becoming supernova by playing 20-40bb PLO in 6max ringgames with stats like above mentioned.

There is way more nuanced plays and scenarios we can discuss. This was just something that i general comments on your questions. Was it useful ? And what is your opinion on my answers?


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