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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:28 pm 
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Sam_Spade wrote:
For those who missed it, there's an interesting article in the NY Review of Books by Garry Kasparov. He describes an experiment where teams of humans competed with AI assistance. And he concludes that Poker might be better than chess for AI research. I guess most people here already knew that!

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/23592


+1

Interesting link.


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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:23 pm 
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bwtaylor wrote:
TheHighFish wrote:
Bwtaylor, according to your strict standards all botters are black-hat-guys

It appears many here are, but I don't agree "all" are. ...

I absolutely agree to you here.
That was an incorrect over-generalization and I realized it, as soon as I went offline.

bwtaylor wrote:
The arguments presented here all fail. They seem to come in two forms: (A) activity XYZ is similar, but it's allowed, so it's OK for me to cheat or (B) other people cheat in way XYZ so it's OK for me to cheat.

Actually no.
Such kind of logic would be completely flawed and I know that.
That points were only meant to get you off your absolute black-white-scheme.

There is mainly one reason, why I don't consider botting cheating (for me):
As long as I work twice as hard as most players to play lower stakes with a smaller winrate it can hardly be cheating.
And if I win really big one day - well, then I do have a serious problem.

;)

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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:59 am 
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Sam_Spade wrote:
For those who missed it, there's an interesting article in the NY Review of Books by Garry Kasparov. He describes an experiment where teams of humans competed with AI assistance. And he concludes that Poker might be better than chess for AI research. I guess most people here already knew that!


Good article. I thinks this supports strongly my position that there is great value in the ethical use of poker bots.


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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:36 am 
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TheHighFish wrote:
Such kind of logic would be completely flawed and I know that.
That points were only meant to get you off your absolute black-white-scheme.

There are many grey areas in ethics. Cheating in intellectual competitions is not one of them.

TheHighFish wrote:
There is mainly one reason, why I don't consider botting cheating (for me):
As long as I work twice as hard as most players to play lower stakes with a smaller winrate it can hardly be cheating.
And if I win really big one day - well, then I do have a serious problem.


OK, this is a new one "I'm only cheating them out of a few bucks, and I had to work hard to do it, so it's OK". First of all, you have no idea how hard your opponents work. Nor is it for you to judge whether their work habits are sufficient. Further, the fact that something takes hard work does not make it ethical. Barry Bonds worked quite hard. The fact that writing bots is hard word is all the more reason not to taint your efforts. The problem with "I only bent the rules a little " and "I barely cheated" is that it's similar to "I only did a little bit of heroin". The imaginary line moves, because it's just that -- a fiction created by the mind to avoid dealing with the alternative: that you are doing something wrong. The line is always just a little beyond what you have actually done. You know where the REAL line is.


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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:49 am 
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OneDayItllWork wrote:
I get the feeling that bwtaylor didn't start this thread with an open mind, but with the sole intention of having a good old winge about online botting.


I started this thread, out of ignorance, to clarify what kind of community this is. I stated that pretty clearly. I am open minded about many things. Cheating is not one of them. Ethics are not negotiable.

OneDayItllWork wrote:
At least most botters used their own skills to produce their bots... unlike HUD users. I'm not sure how it's cheating when most botters are better at poker than their bots anyway, you could consider the bot a handicap!


"I don't like that steel cleats are allowed by major league baseball, so we're using a pitching machine in the next game. But hey, I built it myself, so it's OK".

Using a tool not allowed by the rules is cheating. This is not a hard concept. The anti-HUD whining has to stop. BTW... does your bot do opponent modelling?


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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:52 am 
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bwtaylor wrote:
OneDayItllWork wrote:
I get the feeling that bwtaylor didn't start this thread with an open mind, but with the sole intention of having a good old winge about online botting.


I started this thread, out of ignorance, to clarify what kind of community this is. I stated that pretty clearly. I am open minded about many things. Cheating is not one of them. Ethics are not negotiable.

You made your point clear.
Still you won't change the world nor this forum.
Since when does the majority of human beeing care for ethics ? Or not cheating ?

Everyone does cheat:
- some do small (not giving back the change, when the waiter did a mistake)
- some more (online botting ?)
- some even more (tax fraud ?)
- some even even more (gambling with real estate shares ?)

Everone draws his line - and some bend it more than others do.
And the arguments you read here is just a good example for Cognitive_dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance) - another thing that you can't change because its burned in our minds.

This is not to make it 'right' - but I want just want to say that its as senseless to complain/discuss about ethics in a forum where people discuss how the best way of tax fraud is, as its in a forum for/with online botters.


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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:10 am 
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bwtaylor wrote:
Using a tool not allowed by the rules is cheating. This is not a hard concept. The anti-HUD whining has to stop. BTW... does your bot do opponent modelling?


You do realise that rules (ToS) do not necessarily reflect ethics - their main goal is to secure casino's interests, up to the point of utter ridiculousness - like banning players who play poker professionally.


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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:23 am 
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Breaking the rules and cheating are not the same thing. For example, it's against the rules to play a pool shot with a cigarette in your mouth, is that cheating? No, it's to protect the felt on the table, in the same way that the no botting rules are to protect the image of the poker sites themselves. The fact is, that a lot of the sites, especially the smaller ones probably couldn't care less about bots, they're just more players.

UK law defines cheating in gambling as doing something that effects the outcome of what the gamble is on, and therefore by law (in the UK at least) bots are not cheating.


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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:10 pm 
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bwtaylor wrote:
True enough. This just happened with the cardrunners pros who effectively cheated to defeat ilsildur1 out of millions. I'm surprised that he hasn't sued for his money back. He would win.


I don't understand how this makes sense in anyone's mind who knows anything about internet gambling. But this
thread doesn't make much sense anyway.

Are you even familiar with kahnawake?


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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:14 pm 
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OneDayItllWork wrote:
UK law defines cheating in gambling as doing something that effects the outcome of what the gamble is on, and therefore by law (in the UK at least) bots are not cheating.


Do you have a reference for this? I'm asking a genuine question, not arguing.


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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:25 pm 
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spears wrote:
OneDayItllWork wrote:
UK law defines cheating in gambling as doing something that effects the outcome of what the gamble is on, and therefore by law (in the UK at least) bots are not cheating.


Do you have a reference for this? I'm asking a genuine question, not arguing.


http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2005/ukpga_20050019_en_4#pt3-pb3-l1g42
Quote:
Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1) cheating at gambling may, in particular, consist of actual or attempted deception or interference in connection with—
(a)the process by which gambling is conducted, or
(b)a real or virtual game, race or other event or process to which gambling relates.


So basically you have to fiddle the eventual odds.


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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:39 pm 
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spears wrote:
OneDayItllWork wrote:
UK law defines cheating in gambling as doing something that effects the outcome of what the gamble is on, and therefore by law (in the UK at least) bots are not cheating.


Do you have a reference for this? I'm asking a genuine question, not arguing.


Also a significant precedent.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/arti ... o-sting.do

The guys were released and cashed their winnings.
In UK a sentence from a court is considered equal to a law (as in USA).


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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:47 pm 
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So to sum this up in a few word:

There are purely academicly motivated white-hat botters here and are happy to discuss thoughts with anyone.
On the other hand there are black-hat botters here that have no ethical problems with botting on various real-money clients for real money. Regardless if they are breaking their ToS (noone can stop them anyway).

Thats just the way it is here. If you don't like it bwtaylor you should seriously consider leaving this forum. No point in discussing this stuff here as you won't convince anyone they are doing something wrong. Some might be of the opinion that they aren't doing anything wrong, others simply don't care.
I think you could also argue that professional gambling is unethical as pros take money from fishes. But then again you could argue that the market-system and capitalism is unethical because noone gives a shit about if people live, have enough money for food etc becasue the main goal is to make as much money as possible. So ethics discussions will never really go anywhere IMO. Everyone has to draw their own line.

Basically this is human nature: Always trying to take advantage of what they have to maximize their own good at the cost of others. If they have the ability to build tools to help them, they will do it. If they have the tools to do it, they will do it. Good luck changing the world I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:38 pm 
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bwtaylor wrote:
First of all, you have no idea how hard your opponents work.

You did again misunderstand me.
The argument was (reading it again: was meant to be):
If I (as a botter) work twice as hard as I (as a player)
to bot lower stakes and win less - is that cheating?

;)

And finally I found my hat:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:33 pm 
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TheHighFish wrote:
according to your strict standards all botters are black-hat-guys
(the finest dark-night-black).
They also wear capes, I've been told.
bwtaylor wrote:
Poker is a game. Games have rules. You either follow them or you don't.
It's my belief botters follow the rules of the game of Poker. Botters may circumvent terms of services, which is another set of rules that aren't linked to the game by itself, but to the casino providing said games. Circumventing terms of services isn't something this forum encourages, as pointed out in the FAQ.
bwtaylor wrote:
Poker is not about exploiting "fish" and winning money.
Poker isn't. Poker for real money is (sadly, in my opinion), precisely about this. Whether you are talking about pros taking to school rich wanabees and entertaining whales in Bobby's Room at Bellagio or online grinders, they are all about exploiting lesser players and making money our of them. Which, again in my sole opinion, is a shameful activity for a human being to have.
bwtaylor wrote:
It's about competing on equal footing and getting the just rewards as a share of what's wagered based on the merit of your play within the rules.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but how long have you been around "poker" to have such a pure and naive view of this depraved game ?
bwtaylor wrote:
I am open minded about many things. Cheating is not one of them. Ethics are not negotiable.
I see you are wearing a cape too, up on your horse.
bwtaylor wrote:
Using a tool not allowed by the rules is cheating.
It's not cheating the game of poker. It may be against the Terms of Services of <insert casino name here>. Posting derogatory comments on a forum about <insert casino name here> is also against their Terms of Services. I think even you would agree that posting said derogatory comment, while immoral, isn't cheating.
bwtaylor wrote:
This is not a hard concept.
It's a false concept, as shown by many good posts on this page. Such as what is the definition of cheating, according to UK laws. Which is why some people pointed out the difference between botting and collusion. Collusion provides extra information to a player, and thus, an advantage from a game theoretic point of view. A bot doesn't. Thus, according to UK laws at least, botting, collusion and derogatory forum posts aren't the same thing. You have the right to believe they are equal though, we ask that you respect that we don't.
bwtaylor wrote:
The anti-HUD whining has to stop.
Where ? HUDs, equity and ICM calculators are tools available to human players. These tools may or may not be allowed by <insert casino name here>. Some players are using them, others aren't. Players that do use them do have an advantage against those who don't. People who are smart also have an advantage against those who aren't, I've been told.

Please don't suggest lobotomies next in the name of equality.


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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:59 am 
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This guy is trolling. I'm surprised Indy hasn't closed the thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Hat Colors, Ethics, Botting
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:51 pm 
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OK, guys.

We had many discussions like this. And it's all part of the FAQ.

@bwtaylor, first welcome to the forums. Also feel free to welcome your reputable colleagues here. There are many like this already around, and see no problem doing this.

Now, I can't summarize all the FAQs and ToS for you, but in short:
  • The general forums are completely dedicated to pure PokerAI discussions. There we move threads even if they diverge to playing online poker etc., let alone botting for real money. So these forums should be completely free from something being not allowed even by chance (That's the goal of the mods around, as much as they can keep with that).
  • The online poker and botting is a separate section. This is, where possibly you may find some gray hat stuff. You have to understand that Terms of Services of poker, backgammon, stocktrading etc. rooms VARY A LOT. Some will completely forbid any software assistance, others will not deny such, and others will even encourage such. Check this out for more information: http://pokerai.org/pf3/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=1957

Therefore, the main difference with your comparison is while some things like cracking, hacking etc. are generally unlawful (except for educational etc. purposes or under special crappy jurisdiction where they might be allowed) using software assistance in conjuction with online poker clients is not unlawfull, it is actually explicitely allowed (by some) laws - e.g. the UK one, and it only becomes an issue, if the specific Terms of Service of the respective casino does not want to allow it (to the whatever extend and their ability to define that).

If you find this forum wrong, you might as well find a regular C++ programming forum wrong - because someone may learn C++ and then code a bot for PokerStars.

P.S. When you read the ToS above, keep in mind what is the definition of "bot" in these forums. In these forums "HUD" is also a form of bot. We were unable to find a way to scientifically separate different kinds of assistance software, therefore we kept the things simple. It's all in the ToS for the online botting forums (http://pokerai.org/pf3/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=1957).

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