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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:56 pm 
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indiana wrote:
Ivey/Ferguson/etc. (about 15 pros) own [%] of the software that FullTilt uses. The software is developed by TiltWare (a US company), and FullTilt (actually the company is named differently) licences their software. But this way they have a legal business in US, and at the same time have control over the site.


They actually have a much more complicated structure than this, which will probably never be publicly unraveled. The Gowan lawsuit was thrown out before they were able to do discovery or depose anyone about the company structure.

Tiltware was the original development company founded by Lederer and Ferguson et.al. in Los Angeles. A couple of years ago they moved all the functions of Tiltware to PocketKings in Dublin Ireland and said this was in response to the legal environment in the U.S. (probably because of Party Poker). PocketKings does all the marketing and software development and if you go to work for Full Tilt you would actually work for PocketKings. Then the company that holds the gambling license is Filco Ltd. in Alderney. Then they have a shell in Aruba called Kolmya which ostensibly operates the game servers hosted at MIT in Kahnawake and holds a permit at KGC. How all that is structured and connected back to the U.S. owners is going to be convoluted. But there is no doubt that the major stockholders are all the individuals named in the lawsuit, which are all the pros you mention. They are being sued individually.


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:00 pm 
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How do you know all this?

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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:22 pm 
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Coffee4tw wrote:
How do you know all this?


That's all public information available on the web. People dug up most of it after the Gowan lawsuit was filed. They also have (had?) an operation in Canada called Tiltproof which handles support and cashiering.

http://www.pocketkingscareers.ie/
is where Tiltware moved everything.

I also misspelled "Kolyma" Corp. AVV in my post if you want to look that up.


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:12 pm 
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It seemed way too simple that they would have the software development in the US. We'll see how far that case goes, is the casefile posted yet ?


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:29 pm 
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aiaiai wrote:
It seemed way too simple that they would have the software development in the US. We'll see how far that case goes, is the casefile posted yet ?


It isn't on Justia/PACER because it isn't filed in Federal court, just the Los Angeles Superior Court. Sillysal posted a copy of the complaint on her web site:
http://www.playpokergirl.com/story/

EDIT: found it, http://www.lasuperiorcourt.org/civil/
Click Case Summary on the left, and enter the number in the search box.

Case Number: BC423036
LARY KENNEDY ET AL VS FULL TILT POKER ET AL

There's nothing else there yet other than the complaint she posted on her web site.


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:34 pm 
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Cool. I added this to the OP. Seems that the site above requires registration, but at least you can track developments.

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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:20 pm 
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It appears this case generated too much traffic to the court web site. This morning you could search for free, and then had to register a credit card only to retrieve documents. This afternoon the search is shut down and you have to register and pay $4.75 per search just to see the list of documents.


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:04 pm 
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WOW, if what you are saying was generated by Sillysal's case ...!

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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:23 am 
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spadebidder wrote:
Sillysal posted a copy of the complaint on her web site:
http://www.playpokergirl.com/story/
Thanks for pointing me there.

I read the complaint, I'll quote some stuff that may be of interest to us.

Quote:
The "accused" :
"FULL TILT POKER, an organization;
CHRIS FERGUSON, an individual;
HOWARD LEDERER, an individual;
RAYMOND BITAR, an individual;
PHILLIP GORDON, an individual;
ANDY BLOCH, an individual;
PHIL IVEY, an individual;
PERRY FRIEDMAN, an individual;
JOHN JUANDA, an individual;
ERIK LINDGREN, an individual;
ERIK SEIDEL, an individual;
MICHAEL MATUSOW, an individual;
ALLEN CUNNINGHAM, an individual;
GUS HANSEN, an individual;
PATRIK ANTONIUS, an individual;
TILTWARE LLC, a California limited liablity company;
(so it seems they are not aware that tiltware was "moved" to Dublin as was mentionned previously)

Accusations :
Quote:
(1) FRAUD
(2) RELIEF UNDER THE RACKETEER INFLUENCED CORRUPT ORGANIZATIONS ACT ("RICO"), 18 U.S.c. § 1964 et seq;
(3) RELIEF UNDER CALIFORNIA BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONS CODE SECTION 17200 ET SEQ.
(4) UNJUST ENRICHMENT
(5) LIBEL
(6) SLANDER
(nice list !)

The FT runs bot part (emphasis mine):
Quote:
A second means by which Full Tilt takes a position in the games in which it operates are through “robots” which are computer programs that play poker by interacting with an on-line poker room in a manner similar to a human being. Ferguson and Bloch (graduates of UCLA and MIT respectively) created poker robots to play on Full Tilt’s websites. The purpose of the robots were twofold: first, they filled out virtual poker tables which were slow; second, the poker robots play a very consistent game and can beat unskilled or moderately skilled players, increasing the site’s revenues.

(first mean by which FT takes position was, players such as Lederer, Ivey, Gus etc play with the house money).

So, this could be entertaining provided they have some sort of proofs.


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:52 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:40 pm 
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Anyone know who Ferguson and Bloch are? And, to what extent Silly Sal has proof that Full Tilt hired them for botting? Anyone try to contact them?


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:11 pm 
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c2008 wrote:
Anyone know who Ferguson and Bloch are? And, to what extent Silly Sal has proof that Full Tilt hired them for botting? Anyone try to contact them?


From memory: Bloch is a MIT double degree who was in the MIT black jack team and Ferguson is a phd from
some major US university, he has written some papers on game theory.

Thus both are very capable of writing advanced bots...

But proving that ftp has bots running from the outside is ridiculous anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:56 am 
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They'd have to testify, I would imagine... I wonder if she's been in contact with them? Or, if this is just speculation heard through the grapevine.


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:44 am 
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If you look at "Team Full Tilt", those two are by far the most computer saavy and probably the only ones of the bunch capable to write bots. Fergusson was also part of the IRC poker scene a while back (before he won the main event) where he had written bots if memory serve (they both are "popular" poker players, just google them).

So whether she named them out of wishful thinking or whether she has proof (someone mentionned she may have insider testimony earlier on right ?) is still an open question at this point. Only she knows.

Edit : On previous page you have a picture of her and Chris Ferguson. They do pose for pictures so it likely means nothing. If you meant by "have they been in contact" that they would have told her they wrote bots, that seems preposterous.


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:49 am 
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aiaiai wrote:
If you look at "Team Full Tilt", those two are by far the most computer saavy and probably the only ones of the bunch capable to write bots. Fergusson was also part of the IRC poker scene a while back (before he won the main event) where he had written bots if memory serve (they both are "popular" poker players, just google them).

So whether she named them out of wishful thinking or whether she has proof (someone mentionned she may have insider testimony earlier on right ?) is still an open question at this point. Only she knows.

Edit : On previous page you have a picture of her and Chris Ferguson. They do pose for pictures so it likely means nothing. If you meant by "have they been in contact" that they would have told her they wrote bots, that seems preposterous.


No. I meant it in a more like "smile! I'll sue you for your money someday!" kind of way


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:30 am 
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PmCimini wrote:
No. I meant it in a more like "smile! I'll sue you for your money someday!" kind of way
I was just pointing out who Chris Ferguson was to c2008, and that he was a so-called "celebrity" used to posing for pictures, so that he wouldn't get a wrong idea about the picture meaning something else.


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:22 pm 
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c2008 wrote:
Anyone know who Ferguson and Bloch are? And, to what extent Silly Sal has proof that Full Tilt hired them for botting? Anyone try to contact them?


http://www.chrisferguson.com/it/

Poker WSOP champion, UCLA computer scientist, son of a math game theory professor.

A pretty killer combo.


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:18 pm 
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I think the key point is that Ferguson and Bloch were two of the lead designers of the original Full Tilt software. The three people who founded Tiltware are Chris Ferguson, Howard Lederer, and Ray Bitar.


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:27 pm 
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So on one day Ferguson was coding bots on IRC, and on the next day he was designing FTP software? Interesting.

It's pretty clear that FTP as of today does not run bots. But was it designed to run bots, and did it actually run bots in the early phases, I don't think any of us can be sure in that (And maybe that's what Sillysal tries to exploit). If Ferguson et all have to testify under oath ... well, lying isn't the best thing to do, no matter how easy is to "prove" this from outside.

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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:34 pm 
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:xx07 Ok, that Ferguson & Bloch.

:lol:


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