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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:17 pm 
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It seems that you either don't play on FTP, or you are a losing player there. If you have ever cashout of FTP, you cant mistake Ferguson smiling to you after cashout is complete :)

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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:59 pm 
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Full Tilt Poker has now issued a statement. I can't find it on their website, but it was reposted on several popular gambling sites (I'm resposting it from gambling911 and some of the paragraph might be their own comments instead of FTP press release).

Quote:
"Full Tilt Poker has been made aware of the recent filing of a baseless lawsuit by former Full Tilt Poker customers - Ms. Lary Kennedy and Mr. Greg Omotoy. Both of these player accounts were appropriately terminated for multiple violations of the express terms and conditions governing fair and lawful play in the Full Tilt Poker online virtual cardroom, including their own admissions of using multiple accounts.

"The usage of multiple accounts not only violates the clear terms and agreements governing fair and lawful play, it creates an unequal and unfair advantage that Full Tilt Poker does not and will not permit. We aim to protect our players at all cost, thus we terminated these two claimants' accounts.

"The claims of these former customers have no merit, their complaint is frivolous, especially given the lack of candor during extensive investigation and the unequivocal and unambiguous admissions of using multiple accounts.

"With respect to alleged use of prohibited automated systems, the claimants' false assertions will be revealed as such in due course. Full Tilt Poker has never knowingly allowed "bots" to play on its site. To the extent either of these claimants indeed used such prohibited "bots" in violation of all applicable rules, such impermissible use by the claimants was without the knowledge of Full Tilt Poker. When fraud, collusion, and cheating of any kind is uncovered, Full Tilt Poker investigates extensively, and then acts accordingly and appropriately, as was the case involving these claimants.

"As always, Full Tilt Poker remains committed to protecting their players from anything that might compromise the integrity of its games. Full Tilt Poker expects that this erroneous lawsuit and its spurious claims will be dealt with accordingly by proper courts of law and other appropriate tribunals. Full Tilt Poker expects that these claimants will be obliged to compensate the aggrieved defendants for any harm that may arise out of their false allegations, and for the wrongful institution of these bad faith legal proceedings."

This is not the first time Full Tilt Poker has been thrust into the spotlight over alleged bots playing on their website. In September 2007, the company was forced to respond to concerns that "bots" were playing on the site. The website at that time issued several players affected by the "online poker bot play" refunds, according to Kelli Smithgall of 4Flush.com. Smithgall went on to suggest that suspect "bot" accounts had been froze and were "under investigation".

"The bots reportedly played on Full Tilt at the Texas Hold'em Limit cash tables and possibly, however not confirmed, at some no limit style tables.

"A poker bot is a type of malware, since the bot player is not human, they don't express fear or shame, they also can't recognize a bluff, they play the math, playing correct poker, not emotional poker, which has both it's ups and downs. Humans on the other hand might back off against extremely aggressive players.

"For example, a poker bot will raise any two cards if they think there is even the slightest advantage based on a real player's history.

"Although bots have been a common theme in online gambling and poker playing for several years now, it has been almost impossible to catch them. Like slimy snakes, they seek out unassuming new poker players that are still naive about the online gambling world."

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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:02 pm 
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How stupid could FullTiltPoker be with paragraph like the last one, basically telling that "pokerbots are malware, because they can possibly beat humans" and with this offending e.g. groups like University of Alberta CPRG, where Darse comes from :)

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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:05 pm 
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The malware part really hurt my eyes. Words have meaning, malware is something completely different, software running inside a user's computer without his knowledge.

I do wonder though, if that paragraph is there just to counter some possible testimonials in the upcoming trial, where they would claim that if bots played on their servers (as in, bots ran from FTP servers), it was only because nefarious botters installed them there ! Now that would be a fun way to claim that they got infected by malware on their servers ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:28 pm 
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If FTP reach a point to defend themselve that someone has installed bots on their own PCs that would a massive fail :))

It's also btw funny how in the response of FTP they now focus on multi-accounting (just to make sure they can possibly prove something, as their bot evidence was pretty questionable, if not fake - Mike Heaven, who is one of the very respected mods on 2+2 and was mediating this case found some bugs in the first excel with "evidence" of FTP, and they had to correct it :).

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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:33 pm 
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Reposting from 2 + 2

Attachment:
robots.jpg
robots.jpg [ 28.18 KB | Viewed 1145 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:10 pm 
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genius :D

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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:00 pm 
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Quote:
Not only they would need to prove he is a bot, but they would need to prove that they don't use bots. To do that, they might need to make all their internal systems available to botter's laywers.


Nope Indy, the Plt has the onus of proof.

Full comment to follow.


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:23 pm 
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I have gone through the complaint and I for one don’t want to be associated with it.

The complaint is formulated for the purpose of sensation and gives a history of the complaint and not the particulars of the complaint. It includes a lot of irrelevant allegations which are only included, IHMO, to create publicity and not to sustain a claim. In contrast it seems that certain essential allegations were omitted. The general feeling I get from reading the complaint is: Plaintiff will hassle the Defendant until the Defendant pays the Plaintiff some “nuisance money”

Specifically:

THE PARTIES:

1) Normally the citation of parties is simple: Defendant is mr x who live at xxxx. Giving an address within the jurisdiction of the Court.
2) Here it is clear out of the Complaint that the Court does not have Jurisdiction over certain of the Defendants.
3) Why do the Plaintiff’s make allegations eg. “Lederer was convicted of illegal bookmaking, i.e. sports wagering” it has no bearing on jurisdiction of the court or the status of Ledere as a defendant.
4) “19. Plaintiffs are informed and believe and on that basis allege that all Defendants knowingly and willfully (not my spelling) conspired to conduct the actions alleged herein. Each Defendant did the acts and things herein alleged pursuant to, and in furtherance of, the conspiracy, or lent aid and encouragement to the conspiracy.” Lets all say HEARSAY. Now lets go back to the complaint where do we see conspiracy?

THE COMMON ALLEGATIONS:

5) Here they make some allegation that comes close to alleging certain illegal activities by the Defendant.
6) This is a civil complaint not a criminal complaint. I believe they tried to lay a criminal complaint and was shown the door now they want a second bite.

FRAUD:
7) What misrepresentation did FT make?. “
a. These statements, made and repeated from 2004 to date, include without limitation, the following:
i. Poker is a game of skill and is not deemed to be gambling under federal or state law.
ii. Full Tilt operates a cardroom where everyone plays for their own account, including the Individual Defendants.
iii. Full Tilt does not tolerate the operation of robots on its site.
iv. The money of players deposited and won on Full Tilt is safe.
v. Full Tilt treats its customers fairly and consistently in accordance with the highest standards of the poker community. “
8) Ok lets assume all these statements are false, how does that constitute fraud when FT has made no secret that they will close bot-accounts? Think forward to the trial and you the judge. Plaintiff is testifying. I ask him: “did you operate as a bot?”-> he has to say no. Next question: “were you aware that it is not allowed to play as a bot at FT?” -> if he says yes then he can not rely on the “misrepresentations” alleged and if he say no who will believe him?

The SECOND AND THRID CAUSE OF ACTION:
9) Although I have some thoughts about this I shall withhold my comments until I have spoken to a friend of mine who is practicing at the NY bar.

UNJUSTIFIED ENRICHMENT
10) In the past I have made comments on this as a possible cause of action in these circumstances. The big problem we as botters will face is that the existence of the EULA which means that the enrichment was “cum causa”. These jokers failed to make this essential allegation. I don’t want them to fight my case.

LIBLE AND SLANDER
11) OK so the Plaintiff is offended for being called a bot but he was playing under the ”misrepresentation” that poker is a game of skill which is not true!


CONCLUSION:
ADVISE TO PLAINTIFF: SETTLE AT BEST.
ADVISE TO DEFENDANT: MITTIGATE THE BAD PUBLISITY (probably why FT for the first time made a public reply)


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:50 am 
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want2learn wrote:
The general feeling I get from reading the complaint is: Plaintiff will hassle the Defendant until the Defendant pays the Plaintiff some “nuisance money”


Spot on. And that is the best outcome the plaintiff can expect. It may be equally likely that the suit is dismissed and they get nothing. Either way this will never see a trial. Also, FT has also implied in their public statement that they will focus on the admitted multi-accounting as their reason for closing the account, and not have to worry about proving botting (which they pointedly did not mention in regards to plaintiff).


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:27 am 
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I think that's the first time I've seen "like slimy snakes" used in a press release. They sound like a 16 year old girl that just got dumped by her boyfriend. Is this really at the emotional and intellectual aptitude of their target audience?


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:58 pm 
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c2008 wrote:
I think that's the first time I've seen "like slimy snakes" used in a press release. They sound like a 16 year old girl that just got dumped by her boyfriend. Is this really at the emotional and intellectual aptitude of their target audience?


As Indy mentioned, that was commentary on a web site that published the Full Tilt statement, not part of the statement. The text of the actual statement from Full Tilt is this:

“Full Tilt Poker has been made aware of the recent filing of a baseless lawsuit by former Full Tilt Poker customers - Ms. Lary Kennedy and Mr. Greg Omotoy. Both of these player accounts were appropriately terminated for multiple violations of the express terms and conditions governing fair and lawful play in the Full Tilt Poker online virtual cardroom, including their own admissions of using multiple accounts.

"The usage of multiple accounts not only violates the clear terms and agreements governing fair and lawful play, it creates an unequal and unfair advantage that Full Tilt Poker does not and will not permit. We aim to protect our players at all cost, thus we terminated these two claimants’ accounts.

"The claims of these former customers have no merit, their complaint is frivolous, especially given the lack of candor during extensive investigation and the unequivocal and unambiguous admissions of using multiple accounts.

"With respect to alleged use of prohibited automated systems, the claimants’ false assertions will be revealed as such in due course. Full Tilt Poker has never knowingly allowed "bots" to play on its site. To the extent either of these claimants indeed used such prohibited “bots” in violation of all applicable rules, such impermissible use by the claimants was without the knowledge of Full Tilt Poker. When fraud, collusion, and cheating of any kind is uncovered, Full Tilt Poker investigates extensively, and then acts accordingly and appropriately, as was the case involving these claimants.

"As always, Full Tilt Poker remains committed to protecting their players from anything that might compromise the integrity of its games. Full Tilt Poker expects that this erroneous lawsuit and its spurious claims will be dealt with accordingly by proper courts of law and other appropriate tribunals. Full Tilt Poker expects that these claimants will be obliged to compensate the aggrieved defendants for any harm that may arise out of their false allegations, and for the wrongful institution of these bad faith legal proceedings.”


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:36 pm 
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c2008 wrote:
I think that's the first time I've seen "like slimy snakes" used in a press release. They sound like a 16 year old girl that just got dumped by her boyfriend. Is this really at the emotional and intellectual aptitude of their target audience?
Judging by the crap on 2+2 I'd say the answer is yes.


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:08 pm 
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I guess this was a lot of work to compile so I'm quoting it, that it doesn't get lost now that we're in page 6. Of course, I'm not a laywer and I have no clue what are Sillysal's chances in this case and what are all the possible outcomes. But I think it's not cool for FTP that they withdraw now the botting accusation as it never happened.

If it's just about finding a reason that Sillysal account was closed, they can as well use:
She said something bad about us in public => TOS violation => Account closed/money seized => Case closed.

IMO, FTP was reasonably vocal that SillySal is using bots, and as she is a professional poker player, this have impacted her. I still think FTP would face some issues on that point.

For the rest - I have no clue if it has any merit especially in the unclear situation with legallity of online gambling in US. Of course Sillysal might be the one that need to provide some evidence that FTP used bots, maybe she has some in that direction?

btw The argument of "game of skill" is what FTP/PS are also using to motivate their offering of services to US, despite that it might not actually have legal merit.

want2learn wrote:
I have gone through the complaint and I for one don’t want to be associated with it.

The complaint is formulated for the purpose of sensation and gives a history of the complaint and not the particulars of the complaint. It includes a lot of irrelevant allegations which are only included, IHMO, to create publicity and not to sustain a claim. In contrast it seems that certain essential allegations were omitted. The general feeling I get from reading the complaint is: Plaintiff will hassle the Defendant until the Defendant pays the Plaintiff some “nuisance money”

Specifically:

THE PARTIES:

1) Normally the citation of parties is simple: Defendant is mr x who live at xxxx. Giving an address within the jurisdiction of the Court.
2) Here it is clear out of the Complaint that the Court does not have Jurisdiction over certain of the Defendants.
3) Why do the Plaintiff’s make allegations eg. “Lederer was convicted of illegal bookmaking, i.e. sports wagering” it has no bearing on jurisdiction of the court or the status of Ledere as a defendant.
4) “19. Plaintiffs are informed and believe and on that basis allege that all Defendants knowingly and willfully (not my spelling) conspired to conduct the actions alleged herein. Each Defendant did the acts and things herein alleged pursuant to, and in furtherance of, the conspiracy, or lent aid and encouragement to the conspiracy.” Lets all say HEARSAY. Now lets go back to the complaint where do we see conspiracy?

THE COMMON ALLEGATIONS:

5) Here they make some allegation that comes close to alleging certain illegal activities by the Defendant.
6) This is a civil complaint not a criminal complaint. I believe they tried to lay a criminal complaint and was shown the door now they want a second bite.

FRAUD:
7) What misrepresentation did FT make?. “
a. These statements, made and repeated from 2004 to date, include without limitation, the following:
i. Poker is a game of skill and is not deemed to be gambling under federal or state law.
ii. Full Tilt operates a cardroom where everyone plays for their own account, including the Individual Defendants.
iii. Full Tilt does not tolerate the operation of robots on its site.
iv. The money of players deposited and won on Full Tilt is safe.
v. Full Tilt treats its customers fairly and consistently in accordance with the highest standards of the poker community. “
8) Ok lets assume all these statements are false, how does that constitute fraud when FT has made no secret that they will close bot-accounts? Think forward to the trial and you the judge. Plaintiff is testifying. I ask him: “did you operate as a bot?”-> he has to say no. Next question: “were you aware that it is not allowed to play as a bot at FT?” -> if he says yes then he can not rely on the “misrepresentations” alleged and if he say no who will believe him?

The SECOND AND THRID CAUSE OF ACTION:
9) Although I have some thoughts about this I shall withhold my comments until I have spoken to a friend of mine who is practicing at the NY bar.

UNJUSTIFIED ENRICHMENT
10) In the past I have made comments on this as a possible cause of action in these circumstances. The big problem we as botters will face is that the existence of the EULA which means that the enrichment was “cum causa”. These jokers failed to make this essential allegation. I don’t want them to fight my case.

LIBLE AND SLANDER
11) OK so the Plaintiff is offended for being called a bot but he was playing under the ”misrepresentation” that poker is a game of skill which is not true!


CONCLUSION:
ADVISE TO PLAINTIFF: SETTLE AT BEST.
ADVISE TO DEFENDANT: MITTIGATE THE BAD PUBLISITY (probably why FT for the first time made a public reply)

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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:14 pm 
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Update from court docs:

At Tiltware request the case was moved to Federal Court, Central District of California. Their reason was that the claims present a federal question, and includes a cause of action under Civil RICO law.

Full Tilt / Tiltware is represented by four attorneys from Cozen O'connor, one of the biggest law firms in the world.

Tiltware filed a short statement to the court and all parties correcting the record that Tiltware is an LLC and not a corporation, "and there is no parent corporation." They also stated in their removal request (to federal court) that defendant "Full Tilt Poker has not yet been served" under the question on the application about entities in other jurisdictions.

The last filing in the case on Pacer is a Notice Of Errata, which was pretty interesting. It stated that the "Notice of Removal" filed by the defendants contained a "typographical error". This error was that when they filed for the change (to federal court) one sentence referred to themselves as defendant Full Tilt instead of as defendant Tiltware, and that it was a mistake because the lawsuit was actually served on the registered agent of Tiltware. Both are named defendants.

Nothing else in the court docs since Nov 10, but it looks like things are moving. Response to lawsuit is now due on Dec 7.


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:11 pm 
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Civil Rico: http://www.lectlaw.com/files/lit08.htm

Sounds like a porn star name. :)

And, an easier to understand version: http://www.ricoact.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:51 pm 
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Ok I have looked at this again.

I have looked at http://www.lectlaw.com/files/lit08.htmand also found http://www.pokernewsdaily.com/full-tilt-poker-bot-lawsuit-focuses-on-attorney-background-7052/ .

The First point of interest is the removal of the case to the Federal Court. My money is on the idea that the Defendants intent taking at least two points in limine being:

a)That the complaint does not comply with (see my comments in this threat) :
Quote:
The strict pleading requirements peculiar to RICO (discussed further below)
may result in extensive motion practice directed at dismissing all or parts
of the complaint. Decision of these motions can significantly affect the
scope of the litigation; eliminating claims will not only obviate discovery
and other proceedings related to the claims themselves, but may remove the
jurisdictional predicate for supplemental state law claims, fn1275 allowing
them to be dismissed as well (usually without prejudice). fn1276

The court should therefore adopt procedures for RICO cases designed to test
the sufficiency of the pleadings early on, before other significant
litigation activity commences. Some courts have standing orders requiring
parties alleging RICO claims to file RICO case statements, amplifying and
clarifying the allegations in the pleading. In courts that do not, the court
may adopt a case order requiring submission of such statements before
responsive motions or pleadings are due. fn1277


b)The Courts lack of jurisdiction either geographically or due to lack of service. It is interesting in this regard that it seems only one Defendant entered an appearance from what I read. (I may be wrong but it seems clear that “FullTilt” and many of the private persons did not enter an appearance and that proper service may not even have taken place)

The Second point of interest explains something what was strange to me. I stated before that the formulation of the complaint was very “unusual”. It seems that the Author of the Complaint (Sanai ) is reported by “
Quote:
some legal blogs like Overlawyered and Patterico have suggested that Sanai has a less-than-stellar reputation in some corners of the California legal community.
And that he was acting on a contingency basis and he is encouraging people to joint a class suit. A simple google on him is interesting (Cyrus Sanai). I mean it is not that he is paranoid it is only that all the judges and other lawyers are out to get him.

My read on all of this is that Fulltilt is trying to kill this, without settlement, before discovery stage by way of some preliminary motions. As stated above IMHO they have very good prospects of success. Should they fail in this and the matter proceed to trail they will probably settle because the risk at that stage is just to great.

My advise to anyone even considering to join them is to stay away at least to discovery stage. This would mean that a new complaint would have to be drafted for you (not a bad thing IMHO) and that cost will be more but joining now is just looking for trouble.


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:46 pm 
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I think staying away from Sillysal's personal attempts to deal with FTP is not a bad idea, although didn't get what are you so much afraid of (i.e. the worst that can happen is FTP to kill this - as you say).

What is the latest developments here actually?

I tried to google at some point for updates, but there wasn't any beyond the initial documents on this.

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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:02 am 
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Defiantly part of the group I was in.
"Lary Kennedy" is defiantly an associate of theirs anyhow.
Although I never met her/him/it.

They did tell me on occasion that they've had friends of theirs accounts frozen even though they weren't using the bot.
They were just good players apparently.
And they told me many stories of prop bots on various sites, although I don't remember them talking of prop bots on FT in particular.
A lot of the guys are experts from years back, and imagine if you are working on a Poker AI/Brain that plays so well, you
learn to play well your self. And some of these guys are expert card counters from over a decade ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Sillysal files Lawsuit against FullTiltPoker
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:00 am 
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BigJim wrote:
And some of these guys are expert card counters from over a decade ago.


Meaningless with the use of a hud

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