Image Image Image




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:21 pm 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Posts: 166
Favourite Bot: ZBot
A new law will be applied in France in January 2010 regarding online gambling. I'll just make a little summary here, if you have some questions...

There will only be 3 authorized domains: horse-races, sport bets and poker. Horse-races and sport gambling will be limited to real events.

Everything else will still be unauthorized. The State also keeps the monopol for 'physical' games like lotto.

The state will make a debit on the bets (!) :
- 2% for poker
- 8.5% for sport bets
- 15.5% for horse-races

For poker, they also want to limit the rake. The minimum rake authorized will be between 15 and 20% (really...).

Licenses will be "free", but the companies will have to respect some rules:
- limitations on bets
- limitations on the bankrolls
- limitations on the money you can put on the softs
- automatic "cash out" when your bankroll exceedes a defined amount
- indication of the time spent to play
- indication of the money lost during the game
- possibility for the player to auto-ban himself
- people who are forbidden to play in casinos in France won't be able to play on the internet


Stupid stuff in my opinion:
- The debit on the bets. The government says they decided to do this to fight against addiction and money laundering. 2% on each bet you make is really too much in my opinion, and you'll still have to pay the rake (that will probably be 20% minimum). I don't think we'll see many high stakes players in France.

- Taxation on the operators. It's not much for poker (I couldn't find a precise percentage), but it's going up to 50% for sport.

- Licenses won't be delivered in other countries, meaning that only companies implemented in France will be able to get one.

- They are supposed to forbid illegal money transactions at the same time, meaning that french people won't be able to play on softs from other countries. They will take the illegal companies to court. This decision is so stupid that I doubt they will be clever enough to make it possible.


One thing is sure : I won't play on authorized websites...


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:34 pm 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 7731
Favourite Bot: V12
Geez. OK, I still have to reread this whole thing.

But before anything else - 20% rake - that's unbeatable?!

_________________
indiana


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:54 am 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Posts: 166
Favourite Bot: ZBot
Quote:
But before anything else - 20% rake - that's unbeatable?!

They don't want the players to get more than 80-85% of the money put on the tables. So yeah, 20% rake seems good to them. As usual, the amount will be limited (it's 3$ on most of the poker sites atm, I don't think they will change that). As there is also a tax on the poker companies, the higher the rake is, the more money the State makes. This law has not been voted to make the french people happy, but to have more control on the huge amounts of money french people spend on poker sites each year...

But the rake is not the worst. Let's say we have a 50$ pot with 3$ rake. The state will take 2% of the 50$, that's 1$, so you loose 4$.
Now, we have a 1000$ pot with a 3$ rake. The State will take 20$, you loose 23$ !
Good way to have a -EV when you had a +EV...


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:39 am 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 7731
Favourite Bot: V12
If the rake is limited, it will make it OK at least for the high stakes players.

Which again isn't so good, as it will stop the fish from progressing, fishes will get stuck at the NL10$ limits, and lost their money pretty fast there.

_________________
indiana


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:31 pm 
Offline
Regular member
User avatar

Posts: 58
Favourite Bot: indiana
Is this law already passed and waiting to go into effect or just proposed? Is there an official release or link with the details? Sounds like it might be the first country to try and beat the US with the UIGEA for short-sightedness.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:59 pm 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Posts: 166
Favourite Bot: ZBot
Just proposed atm, but it has been so much mediatized in France that there is 99% chance it'll be effective. French casinos see less customers than a few years ago, and as they are taxed by the State, it means less money for it. This law is obviously here to make money, and I highly doubt the Senate is full of online gamblers... They see more control and profit over online gambling in this law. It'll be definitively voted during the summer. Even if it doesn't pass, it could be like the new law about downloading (people who download illegal software that will see their internet connection shut down, and will have to pay a fine to the State) that was refused a few days ago for a strange confrontation against two political parties, but will be submitted again in a few weeks.

There are lots of links in french (you can google "loi francaise poker en ligne"), I must admit I've not been looking for links in english ;)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:15 am 
Offline
Junior member
User avatar

Posts: 10
Favourite Bot: Poki
Seems to me like this would kill the mainstream poker players in France. You'd have the ones that are addicted to gambling still playing, just losing their money faster, and you'd have the high stakes players (if there's a cap on the rake) still able to play, but everyone who wasn't there just to gamble would just get pushed out by high costs.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:50 am 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Posts: 247
I don't think the EU will allow this law since it will prevent other poker rooms to be able to compete with the prices of the local (the french) casinos.

Sweden got hit accross their fingers for having higher taxes on wine than on beer which made it harder for foreign wine growers to compete with the local made beer.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:36 pm 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 2342
Favourite Bot: My next one
Zoobie wrote:
(people who download illegal software that will see their internet connection shut down, and will have to pay a fine to the State)

Offtopic but there is no fine. What's in Hadopi is the ability for the members of the commission (french version of RIAA/MPAA) to use the evidence they gathered to take legal (penal) actions against the individuals.

loudion wrote:
I don't think the EU will allow this law since it will prevent other poker rooms to be able to compete with the prices of the local (the french) casinos.
Again going offtopic yet related to previous point, EU already forbid cutting internet connections as a mean to prevent piracy. Yet the french law doesn't seem to care about it.

Legal experts say that the disconnection part will get overruled at some point (as soon as an accused french will go before the EU) and that the ability for the members of the Hadopi commission to gather "evidence" of infractions against Internet users will still remain. Giving the french RIAA/MPAA something akin to what DMCA did in the US.

So the point of that offtopic was, even if you see something outrageous at first (disconnecting users), with french laws you really need to pay attention to the small print as the fact that EU will overrule some of the law is already taken into account by those who push for the laws.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:34 pm 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 7731
Favourite Bot: V12
aiaiai wrote:
Zoobie wrote:
(people who download illegal software that will see their internet connection shut down, and will have to pay a fine to the State)
Offtopic but there is no fine. What's in Hadopi is the ability for the members of the commission (french version of RIAA/MPAA) to use the evidence they gathered to take legal (penal) actions against the individuals.
Off-off-topic. What legal actions the commission can take, if it's not fine? Put someone to jail ...?

_________________
indiana


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:56 pm 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 2342
Favourite Bot: My next one
indiana wrote:
aiaiai wrote:
Zoobie wrote:
(people who download illegal software that will see their internet connection shut down, and will have to pay a fine to the State)
Offtopic but there is no fine. What's in Hadopi is the ability for the members of the commission (french version of RIAA/MPAA) to use the evidence they gathered to take legal (penal) actions against the individuals.
Off-off-topic. What legal actions the commission can take, if it's not fine? Put someone to jail ...?
The new law doesn't define anything on that front.

Current law for "pirating" is something like up to 200kE fine and/or up to 2 yr/jail, although nobody ever got that for filesharing. I think the most anyone got fined in france for filesharing is 10k euros, see here.

The pervert thing that the Hadopi law does is that it gives an easy way for the french version of MPAA/RIAA to collect "evidence to infractions" without actually needing a cop to oversee the collection of data (they can get the name under the IP address through the Hadopi commission, without the need for any warrant), and use this evidence in a court of law (in France, any infraction must be acknowledged by a cop under oath, usually, although there has been another exception recently with automated speeding radars [for cars] where no cop is present when your car get flashed for overspeeding [although a cop supervise the collection of data, which is a bit of the same with the Hadopi commission where a cop will sign off the "evidence" after it has been collected independantly]).


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:57 pm 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 2342
Favourite Bot: My next one
Some more bad news, apparently this law is moving forward right now. They are also talking about filtering access (at ISP level) to sites that would not take a licence with the french authorities. Details are still sparse and much is in the air, will try to find more.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:54 pm 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 7731
Favourite Bot: V12
It might be pretty interesting if this law is passed. It would mean that a lot of people will start to use VPN to access poker sites. Which in turn will make usage of VPN not something special.

_________________
indiana


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:15 pm 
Offline
Regular member
User avatar

Posts: 58
Favourite Bot: indiana
indiana wrote:
It might be pretty interesting if this law is passed. It would mean that a lot of people will start to use VPN to access poker sites. Which in turn will make usage of VPN not something special.


If the French public is anything remotely close to the American public, I'd wager that 98%+ will simply 'obey' the new law rather than use a VPN to bypass it. Technical people tend to seriously overestimate the knowledge, abilities, and motivation of the masses.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:32 pm 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 7731
Favourite Bot: V12
Extensive 2+2 thread on the French laws:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/57/po ... st13934167

aiaiai: You government thinks there are no bots in France! :)

Quote:
Person #2 :Initial text planned a 7.5% rake on every pot, which would have deterred any non-French person to play on the sites. However with 2% capped at 1 Eur we have to be more careful.
Also making these sites French-only is the only way to protect our player base from bots.

_________________
indiana


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:17 am 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 2342
Favourite Bot: My next one
indiana wrote:
Extensive 2+2 thread on the French laws:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/57/po ... st13934167

aiaiai: You government thinks there are no bots in France! :)

Quote:
Person #2 :Initial text planned a 7.5% rake on every pot, which would have deterred any non-French person to play on the sites. However with 2% capped at 1 Eur we have to be more careful.
Also making these sites French-only is the only way to protect our player base from bots.

This is pretty funny :)

I'm reading the whole final text right now, this got translated into :
Quote:
Elle s’assure également que le nouveau joueur est une personne physique, en requérant l’entrée d’un code qui permette de limiter les inscriptions de robots informatiques.

Rough translation : Companies that want a licence in France must make sure that a new player is a physical person, by requiring entry of a code to limit subscription of bots.
-> So they will put a captcha at registration. You got to love french lawmakers... They also mandate popup warning that minors shouldn't gamble and asking for birthdate everytime you come on the site. Cause minors won't know how to come around that !

This is in a "Fraud & money laundering prevention" article, which makes it not nice. They do say further down that basically fraud and money laundering prevention is up to the sites. And that all this must happen between physical players. But there's nothing describing penalty of someone found running one.

Other stuff :
- Tax is 1.8% on rake/tourney buyins. For cash games it's capped at 0.1e per hand (sounds very low). Too bad it's not capped on tourneys too.
- All money transfers are done through your (main) bank account that is linked at registration.
- Non licenced sites aren't authorized to offer their games to french players or be fined by 200ke/7 yrs jailtime.

I didn't see if there's another income tax on top of the rake. The whole "tables with foreign players" isn't really adressed in the final bill, I may have missed it though. It was only mentioned in that transcript quoted above from parliament debates. This is probably the biggest concern for anyone playing from France.

This is a lot of degrees of bad as there is an upcoming law (Loppsi) to filter out "bad" Internet sites through a banlist that the gouvernemnt will control and you can be pretty sure that non licenced sites will be on it. Sure you can always VPN out of here but this is gonna limit the markets a lot.

And overall, it feels like we can expect legislation that segments markets such as this to be passed at other places in Europe.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:45 am 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Posts: 166
Favourite Bot: ZBot
indiana wrote:
aiaiai: You government thinks there are no bots in France! :)

aiaiai is french ? :shock:

astro wrote:
If the French public is anything remotely close to the American public, I'd wager that 98%+ will simply 'obey' the new law rather than use a VPN to bypass it.

So true... I suppose I will have to check that option.

aiaiai wrote:
I didn't see if there's another income tax on top of the rake. The whole "tables with foreign players" isn't really adressed in the final bill, I may have missed it though. It was only mentioned in that transcript quoted above from parliament debates. This is probably the biggest concern for anyone playing from France.

True. That would be fu*** stupid to limit french players to play against each others. Poker is not as developed in France as in other countries, and I am not sure there will be the same proportion of fishes who want to give me their money.

aiaiai wrote:
Tax is 1.8% on rake/tourney buyins. For cash games it's capped at 0.1e per hand (sounds very low).

I do not know how to interpret that. Is that money taken from the player of from the rake ?

I do not think that the poker sites would really be happy to see the government take money on their tables as soon as a french player is in the game, especially when the cap is so low for cash games (that would mean that as soon as a french guy is playing, 0.1€ are taken from the rake). I suppose it could represent a nice amount of money (if it did not, the french would not have done it).


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:10 pm 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Posts: 451
Favourite Bot: gimmick
aiaiai wrote:
Rough translation : Companies that want a licence in France must make sure that a new player is a physical person, by requiring entry of a code to limit subscription of bots.


But is botting illegal in France? Could you be brought to court because of botting?
That would be a huge it for french botters.

Quote:
This is a lot of degrees of bad as there is an upcoming law (Loppsi) to filter out "bad" Internet sites through a banlist that the gouvernemnt will control and you can be pretty sure that non licenced sites will be on it. Sure you can always VPN out of here but this is gonna limit the markets a lot.


In italy we have something like that but it can be avoided with a dns different from the one given to you by the internet provider. I use opendns for example. The problems begin when the poker network won't allow you in if you are from italy and/or requires you subscribe on the local network which has other restrictions.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:19 pm 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 2342
Favourite Bot: My next one
Zoobie wrote:
True. That would be fu*** stupid to limit french players to play against each others. Poker is not as developed in France as in other countries, and I am not sure there will be the same proportion of fishes who want to give me their money.
Advertisement will be allowed under certain conditions for licenced pokersites which may bring some new (fishy) players in.

But it kinda sounds like a too little too late approach and this may not "take" at all :( I truly hope this won't be the case but it's one of the things I couldn't tell from the bill, that you can read here : http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13/pdf/ta/ta0348.pdf

I suggest everyone with an interest in it reads it and report back.

Zoobie wrote:
aiaiai wrote:
Tax is 1.8% on rake/tourney buyins. For cash games it's capped at 0.1e per hand (sounds very low).

I do not know how to interpret that. Is that money taken from the player of from the rake ?

Ok I actually went back and I misread the whole thing, because the tax is split in two in article 39 and 40, long french pastes :

Article 39 (main tax) :
Quote:
« S’agissant des autres jeux de cercle, le prélèvement mentionné à l’article 302 bis ZI est plafonné à 0,9 € par donne.
« Art. 302 bis ZK. – Le taux des prélèvements mentionnés aux articles 302 bis ZG, 302 bis ZH et 302 bis ZI est fixé à 1,8 % des sommes engagées au titre des jeux de cercle en ligne.

So first tax is 1.8% capped at 0.9e/pot.

Article 40 (social security tax) :
Quote:
« Art. L. 137-20. – Il est institué, pour les jeux de cercle en ligne organisés et exploités dans les conditions fixées par l’article 9 de la loi n° du précitée, un prélèvement de 0,2 % sur les sommes engagées par les joueurs.

« Ce prélèvement est dû par les personnes titulaires, en tant qu’opérateur de jeux de cercle en ligne, de l’agrément mentionné à l’article 16 de la loi n° du précitée.

« Art. L. 137-21. – Les prélèvements mentionnés aux articles L. 137-18, L. 137-19 et L. 137-20 sont assis sur le montant brut des sommes engagées par les joueurs et parieurs. Les gains réinvestis par ces derniers sous forme de nouvelles mises sont également assujettis à ces
prélèvements.

« S’agissant des jeux de cercle organisés sous forme de tournoi et donnant lieu au paiement, par chaque joueur, d’un droit d’entrée représentatif d’une somme déterminée que celui-ci engagera au jeu, le prélèvement mentionné à l’article L. 137-20 est assis sur le montant de ce
droit d’entrée et, le cas échéant, sur le ou les droits d’entrée ultérieurement acquittés par le joueur afin de continuer à jouer.

« S’agissant des autres jeux de cercle, le prélèvement mentionné à l’article L. 137-20 est plafonné à 0,1 € par donne.
So second tax is 0.1e cap on that 0.2% tax. And it looks like a cap on per player rake.

So :
- 2% rake tax capped to 1e per player/per pot total. Do we agree on that ?
- For tourneys, 2% of buyin -> tax.

Zoobie wrote:
I do not think that the poker sites would really be happy to see the government take money on their tables as soon as a french player is in the game, especially when the cap is so low for cash games (that would mean that as soon as a french guy is playing, 0.1€ are taken from the rake). I suppose it could represent a nice amount of money (if it did not, the french would not have done it).
If it's indeed a per player rake they could work out a formula.

Ockham wrote:
But is botting illegal in France? Could you be brought to court because of botting?
That would be a huge it for french botters.
This bill does not address those questions, sadly.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:14 am 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 7731
Favourite Bot: V12
Ups. Not cool ...

http://www.gamingintelligence.com/index ... ne-results

Quote:
The Finance Committee of the French Senate has introduced an amendment to the country’s draft gaming bill which could see Chinese style censorship of search engines to block the listing of unlicensed online gaming operators.

_________________
indiana


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: