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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:30 pm 
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Well I was thinking of a format PT supported eg poker stars HH format but I guess we can just create the records str8 in the database. How hard would this be create the data in poker tracker can we change the code that displays the output.


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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:41 pm 
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bob101 wrote:
Well I was thinking of a format PT supported eg poker stars HH format but I guess we can just create the records str8 in the database. How hard would this be create the data in poker tracker can we change the code that displays the output.
IMO it would be way easier to write out some supported hand history format (like party or why not iPoker-XML format which is pretty "well defined") and let PT parse them than insert the exact correct values to PT-tables. Just my IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:23 am 
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Coffee4tw and Indiana,

I have started to run my tests with Testbed, but i didnt have good bots to play agaisnt, why dont you send some or one bot that we can run to try to beat ?
On this way when my bot is beating yours than i can send it to you and you can test it against your best bot.

What do you think about it ?


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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:53 am 
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No, the rules are you have to submit a bot, and we test it against ours. The one that we included in the testbed (Simplebot) is already not absolutely trivial to beat (except if you especially tune for that), but in anycase is there so that you can simply have your bot bugfree.

You don't need to submit your finest bot. You can submit one that you think will beat ours. If it doesn't, then your code wasn't of huge value, so you lost nothing. Then you can make (or send) a better version and so on. Of course, we wouldn't accept hurge amount of submissions, but you can use a strategy like this to submit a "just enough" bot to get accepted, and possibly share the rest when you get in the lab.

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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:02 am 
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Ok Indiana,

I will run it with those bots.

Just another think, i am trying to post for you and Coffee a PM message with a little problem in Testbed but my messages stay just in "OutBox" and cant send the message. What i am doing wrong ? Could you check it ?

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:05 am 
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It stays in the outbox until the other person reads it... Don't send PM's more than once in the future please!

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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:15 pm 
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Ok Coffee, sorry about that.


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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:45 am 
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Hi, are you still taking applicants for this? I just got your testbed up and running and it seems like a great tool.

Also, in your previous thread it said the barrier for entry was beating SimpleBot and KillPhilBot, which seems pretty doable to me. However, this thread kind of implies that I have to be able the best bots your lab has. I'm just wondering if its worth my time to try to do this, or if I'm going to have to program some ridiculously good bot to get in.


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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:23 pm 
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You can certainly still apply.

We judge individually about every applicant and decide whether to let him in or not so I can't tell you in detail what you need to submit to be admitted. For example if you submit a bot we will not only judge it by the results but also by its complexity and the ideas behind it. E.G. if you only have a rule-based bot you need to have a pretty darn good strategy with a lot of rules in it and beat our good bots to make-up for the "easyness" of nested if-then-else structures while if you are using some advanced neural nets for the bot you can probably lack some good results as the idea and your willingness to improve that idea may be enough.
Submitting bots is not the only way to get in though. You may also apply with other parts that help the sng environment but that would be an exception. Feel free to apply with whatever you have and we will judge if you fit in our group or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:41 am 
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Ok thanks for the explanation.

I noticed that the testbed handles heads up and full 9 man games. Are you only looking for 9 man bots or are heads up bots acceptable as well?


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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:50 am 
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pplatypus wrote:
I noticed that the testbed handles heads up and full 9 man games. Are you only looking for 9 man bots or are heads up bots acceptable as well?

10 players is the default format we went for, although the testbed can simulate any number of players or structure (DON, etc).

What we're looking for though is a bot able to handle 10-9 or 6 players SNG from beggining to end.


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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:16 pm 
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I'm building a poker app, and for testing/requirements - i used the Sng testbed and Meerkat engine.
My main focus is [currently] more on the GUI/requirements gathering, rather than the decision engine(all decision making is delegated to the user input). So anyway, i have this app (Eclipse RCP) which can run SnG tourneys and CashGames in PA, while displaying different stats etc. - something like a HUD on steroids.

I'm close to finishing basic GUI framework - i.e. charts, tables, graphs, html notes etc. - and now need to define what actual stats/things i will show in the gui.

so, basically my question/proposal is - u guys will tell me what use-cases/stats/workflows are needed in poker in general(i'm not specifically interested in bots per se - more in a human online game)
and i can provide some sophisticated GUI for your Bot engine
just an example - an Eclipse-based Bot IDE with a debugger(see what decisions your Bot makes in real-time),

i attached a screenshot of the RealTime perspective - there's a SnG testbed running with 9 SimpleBots and 1 ProfilerBot(it delegates all the decision to the user). It shows the board/hole cards/stacks/actions etc.
but it's just a teaser - i have a lot more coming(import hand history, hand analysis(more configurable and easier than PT and HM, IDE for RuleBased/NN bots etc.)
Attachment:
File comment: a real-time view while running SnG testbed
REALTIME.GIF
REALTIME.GIF [ 116.09 KB | Viewed 1583 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:04 pm 
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I am not really sure I get what you are offering.

We do have a GUI Batch Manager to run different batches of sngs with different bots and or blind structures etc including results at the end. Not sure a graphical interface for real-time action viewing is of much use to us but maybe you want to explain that topic a little more here or via PM?

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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:17 pm 
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I am working on a DoN bot right now, do you guys have a reference bot "to beat" for this game (as you have for SnG)?


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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:20 pm 
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Well our bots can play DoN aswell, not sure if they are any good though. They probably can beat the micro's.

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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:23 pm 
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[b]Coffee4tw[/b]:
i mean, you guys are good at poker AI, but your GUI isn't too advanced(no offense intended - it probably wasn't a priority for you). And i'm good with GUI, and in dire need of system analysis for poker real-time application(something similar to HUD with various stats etc.). So i thought maybe we can co-operate in some way.
Let me explain a little more: i didn't mean you want/need to check your Bot's action in realtime. But i suppose
you WOULD want to analyze/check its actions in specific games/players: ie. why in the hell did he fold with pat fullhouse or jammed with a single pair, or how did he play with Opponent X with 2 limpers pre-flop.

Another option would be to build a rule-based bot configured through UI(instead of hard-coded) and make it easier for non-programmers. I have a framework for playing in SnG testbed/PokerAcademy, so i can extend it to handle configurable bot (i.e. fold on all trash hands and ask for User input when whe have a hand group3 or better)

I started this project after reading Indiana's post @CodingWheel about lack of HTML notes in current poker clients and overall GUI suckiness. I saw that he hangs out here a lot - so i assumed this is a good place to look for programmers who know poker, but hate to mess with UserExperience stuff.
makes any sense?


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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:53 am 
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absolut666 wrote:
I saw that he hangs out here a lot

Hmm actually he owns this forum. :D

But anyway we'll consider what you have to give. So far I think we have all the stuff you mentioned already in our logs which might not be in a nice GUI but it's only for personal use anyway mostly.

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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:34 pm 
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Coffee4tw wrote:
Not sure a graphical interface for real-time action viewing is of much use to us but maybe you want to explain that topic a little more here or via PM?

Why not ?
Wouldn't it help a lot for watching/debugging a bot ? Yes all can be read on the console but this is cumbersome.
If I had to vote for the output of your SnG testbet and the screenshot I saw, I'd always vote for latter ?

Maybe if the output was in some format poker tracker or HoldemManager could read I'd change my mind, as I could analyse the bots performance then in pokertracker.
Whould that be a welcomened addition to the testbed ?


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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:04 pm 
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Quote:
absolut666 wrote:
I saw that he hangs out here a lot

Hmm actually he owns this forum. :D

how observant of me ))))))) :theboss

anyway, from some previous posts around here i noticed people are protective about their code/algorithms
so if that's an issue - it isn't - i don't need nobody's code, all i'm interested in is poker domain knowledge - i.e. what
is important in playing poker: position, pot odds, opponent profiling and how to present it.

Quote:
bluegaspode wrote:
Maybe if the output was in some format poker tracker or HoldemManager could read I'd change my mind, as I could analyse the bots performance then in pokertracker.
Whould that be a welcomened addition to the testbed ?


would you be interested to be in a "focus group"? i mean besides GUI, i'm building another data analysis module(something like PT/HH, but much more configurable/user friendly)
basically, what i need is somebody tell me what features would you like to have. i hoped that since this is a hangout for poker hackers i would have an easier time to find a "system analyst/domain expert".


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 Post subject: Re: Public SNG Testbed
PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:11 am 
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bluegaspode wrote:
Coffee4tw wrote:
Not sure a graphical interface for real-time action viewing is of much use to us but maybe you want to explain that topic a little more here or via PM?

Why not ?
Wouldn't it help a lot for watching/debugging a bot ? Yes all can be read on the console but this is cumbersome.
If I had to vote for the output of your SnG testbet and the screenshot I saw, I'd always vote for latter ?

Maybe if the output was in some format poker tracker or HoldemManager could read I'd change my mind, as I could analyse the bots performance then in pokertracker.
Whould that be a welcomened addition to the testbed ?


We do have a an option that exports hand histories in FTP format. So you can also just import them in PT3 or HoldemManager etc.

As for the debugging of bot play... well it might be some nice icing on the cake but as of now text format output including log files of the bots "thought" process is what we have and all we need. Feel free to code this GUI you wanted to do against the public testbed. It should then be compatible (with maybe a few changes) to our latest version.
What I'd more like to see would be some bot management app that has some overviews of what tables are played, current wins/losses etc but that is totally unrelated to the testbed...

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