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 Post subject: Legality of using and selling bots
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:23 am 
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EDIT/Indiana: Split from this thread.

Before asking my question let me say I have no moral objection to botting or selling bots. And I don't know the answer to the question either, which is why I'm asking. Does it not concern you that by selling a bot the casinos will take legal action against you? You might ask under what legislation. In the UK I think there may be two ways.

(1) Conspiracy to defraud, a criminal offence. If you sold a tool designed to win unfairly in a bricks and mortar casino in the UK you could be charged and subject to a prison sentence. It's happened. Recently. Of course it's not a b&m casino and its not in the UK. But quite a few sites are in ex UK colonies which share many of our laws and have extradition treaties in place. Other casinos are in ex Dutch colonies which have similar laws and treaties.

(2) Conspiracy to breach contract, a civil matter. This probably wouldn't get very far as the breach is "technical" and the casinos would find it difficult to prove they sustain any material loss.

You might say that the casinos can't find you, but I don't see how you can receive payment anonymously. Even e-Gold used to cooperate with the authorities on legal matters.


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 Post subject: Re: Logical AI Botting Platform
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:43 pm 
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spears wrote:
Before asking my question let me say I have no moral objection to botting or selling bots. And I don't know the answer to the question either, which is why I'm asking. Does it not concern you that by selling a bot the casinos will take legal action against you? You might ask under what legislation. In the UK I think there may be two ways.

(1) Conspiracy to defraud, a criminal offence. If you sold a tool designed to win unfairly in a bricks and mortar casino in the UK you could be charged and subject to a prison sentence. It's happened. Recently. Of course it's not a b&m casino and its not in the UK. But quite a few sites are in ex UK colonies which share many of our laws and have extradition treaties in place. Other casinos are in ex Dutch colonies which have similar laws and treaties.

(2) Conspiracy to breach contract, a civil matter. This probably wouldn't get very far as the breach is "technical" and the casinos would find it difficult to prove they sustain any material loss.

You might say that the casinos can't find you, but I don't see how you can receive payment anonymously. Even e-Gold used to cooperate with the authorities on legal matters.



Well, I guess if you can convince a prosecutor that playing good poker and conspiracy to defraud are one in the same, there may be something for me to worry about. If they get Ray I'll have to consider changing my location. LOL

I honestly fail to see where the moral breach is as well. I got into a rather heated argument about this with iStrong over at 2+2. I say a poker bot is not really cheating. A common bot has less information then a average opponent. For example, a lot of the 2+2ers are running SpadeEye, AHK BetPot and PokerAceHud. They got more information then my bot at any given moment. They are sitting there fish hunting, looking for suckers, while using advanced profiling tools. How they figure that that is OK, and my bot is immoral I fail to understand. A bot is basically a true grinder, it's in a vulnerable position, because it lacks the 'gut' feel. It's pure math. It has no real edge over a player equipped with todays average poker soft. The only thing it's cheating is time.

Casinos don't care about bots, some of the biggest casinos today were founded on bots, PartyPoker for example. Of course publicly they deny any affiliation, but the reality is rake is king. Casinos have their hand full with credit card fraud, honest botters are the least of their problems.

There are botters I know that still run 24/7 on some of the biggest brands in the business and cash out just fine. Furthermore, botting is not against the law in any country as it stands today. That is why me, and Ray, and a few other people legally accept credit cards.

Hope this helps alleviate some misconceptions.

P.S. On a side note Spears, that evaluator from 2+2 is really something.

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 Post subject: Re: Logical AI Botting Platform
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:25 pm 
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LogicalAI wrote:
Well, I guess if you can convince a prosecutor that playing good poker and conspiracy to defraud are one in the same, there may be something for me to worry about.

Just to be clear, I'm not personally about to try to convince a prosecutor, but I guess someone might be.
LogicalAI wrote:
I honestly fail to see where the moral breach is as well.

Me too.
LogicalAI wrote:
Furthermore, botting is not against the law in any country as it stands today.

How do you know? I don't know either way.
LogicalAI wrote:
Casinos don't care about bots, some of the biggest casinos today were founded on bots, PartyPoker for example. Of course publicly they deny any affiliation, but the reality is rake is king.

Rake is king agreed. But when bots become very good and very numerous, the casinos will just have to stop them because most humans will depart otherwise. How many people would play day in day out against a poker pro?


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 Post subject: Re: Logical AI Botting Platform
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:41 pm 
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http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Primary&PageNumber=1&BrowseLetter=G&NavFrom=1&parentActiveTextDocId=1036791&ActiveTextDocId=1036798&filesize=2287
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=429042&in_page_id=1770


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 Post subject: Re: Logical AI Botting Platform
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:35 pm 
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OK, first, pokerbotting give no unfair advantage. Second, it is allowed at some casinos, namely these that does not forbid it in their license agreement. So selling a product is fine.

If pokerbotting is cheating, using poker tracker (or any other software) is cheating too, it's that simple, there is no other meaningful logic based on which you can draw any moral lines or definitions. You can either draw the line along using/not using any softweare or along giving/not giving unfair advantage from game theory perspective.

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 Post subject: Re: Logical AI Botting Platform
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:55 pm 
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indiana wrote:
If pokerbotting is cheating, using poker tracker (or any other software) is cheating too, it's that simple, there is no other meaningful logic based on which you can draw any moral lines or definitions.

I stronly disagree. Cheating is what breaks the rules by which both parts have agreed to play a certain game, and it does not have anything to do with which sides gets an advantage when one of the parts breaks the rules.
If we agree to play a "normal" tenis match, and you show up with a chair to hit the ball instead of a racquet, that is cheating. It doesn't matter if the chair will get you nowhere.
As Poker Tracker is within the accepted rules at all sites, it is not cheating.
And when a bot plays at a site where bots are forbidden, it is cheating, because you accepted to not use bots when accepted the site policies.

BTW, which sites do not forbid bots?

For now, I personally don't have anything against bots, I even made an open challenge in order to know something about bots. If I lose consistently, I might start to have something against bots :-)

Regards ...


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 Post subject: Re: Logical AI Botting Platform
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:18 pm 
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I have to agree with Indiana here.

If you dissect the entire food chain, an interesting picture emerges.

The casinos are cheating everyone, the fraudsters are cheating them, the 2+2 are cheating newbs cause they have better tools, the botters are grinding away in the background, which is considered cheating by some. Basically, until the newbs learn to cheat themselves one way or the other, they are screwed.

Being afraid of bots because they play better is silly, just get SpadeEye and stay away from the good players.

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 Post subject: Re: Logical AI Botting Platform
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:48 pm 
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LogicalAI wrote:
I have to agree with Indiana here.
If you dissect the entire food chain, an interesting picture emerges.
The casinos are cheating everyone, the fraudsters are cheating them, the 2+2 are cheating newbs cause they have better tools, the botters are grinding away in the background, which is considered cheating by some. Basically, until the newbs learn to cheat themselves one way or the other, they are screwed.

The food chain argument has nothing to do with the subject discussed.
You are here confusing the term "cheating" with "earns money from".
In some way you should earn money in order to leave I guess, and it seems one of the ways you do it is by selling software.
So does the fact that you earn money from your customers allows them to start selling multiple times the licences of your program because "you cheated them"?
Does the fact that Mc Donalds earns money from it's customers allow them to start stealing the chairs in order to earn money back?
BTW, I don't think nobody earns money for nothing, they earn it for a reason, nobody is forced to buy any item or service, and if they do it is for a reason, the reason being that the item or service being purchased has more "value" for you than the money that you pay for it.
Regards ...


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 Post subject: Re: Logical AI Botting Platform
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:49 pm 
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Adrian20XX wrote:
I stronly disagree. Cheating is what breaks the rules by which both parts have agreed to play a certain game, and it does not have anything to do with which sides gets an advantage when one of the parts breaks the rules.BTW, which sites do not forbid bots?
Regards ...


Read the FAQs around ...

Casinos have in their agreement a lot of ridicilous statements, one of which (in some casinos) is disallowing bots, but others are that proffesional play (play that is not for personal entertainment) is forbidden, as well as that you cannot say something bad about the casino in medias including forums. Now, with these clauses, tell me know many of the online poker players are cheating? I guess there is no 2+2-er that have not said that either Stars or FTP sucks, so I guess everyone then on 2+2 is a cheater.
You are right that cheating is determined by the EULA (of currently largely illegal business, what are the online casinos offering play to US e.g.) but also EULAs currently are completely market driven and have no logic in it.

Also there are many casinos EULAs that do not mention bots at all, and effectively do nothing about them even if they are 100% certain that someone is using a bot.

P.S. I have split the discussion from the original thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Legality of using and selling bots
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:01 am 
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Let's talk about specific examples.

PartyGaming's Unfair Advantage Policy states:
Quote:
5. The Use of "BOTS":

Certain companies offer for sale programs ("BOTS") specifically created to play a game in place of an actual (human) player, and conceal its use from the other players, and avoid detection by the online gaming site. These programs are marketed by explicitly promising the prospective purchaser-user an unfair advantage over other online players not using that program.


I'm certainly not marketing my bot as something that gives unfair advantage, Ray is not marketing Winholdem that way, I'm not sure who wears the pants on the OH team after OH said 'Geesh' to me, but from what I understand they are not marketing their product as something that gives unfair advantage. No products include a winning formula.

Now just above that:
Quote:
4. Extracting Player Profiles:

Certain companies offer for sale programs specifically created to extract player profiles and then sell them in the form of enormous player databases with the promise that anyone who purchases these programs can use this information to their advantage against other players invisibly gathering information about you and then selling it to others to use when they play against you online.

These programs are based on Player hand histories and they typically use the following methods: screen-scraping, reading "Dealer Chat," and by accessing hand histories directly from individual Player's computers using the program.


So here we have 2+2ers screaming bloody murder at bots while they are publicly admitting that they break the same EULA. I don't know if you have recently visited the software forum on 2+2 http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/forum ... 66c88&f=45

I'm sorry, but is that about 3-4 automation scripts offered on the front page, mining and profiling services fill in the rest. So I think it's pretty safe to say everyone is breaking the EULA, top mods on 2+2 use this stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Legality of using and selling bots
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:13 am 
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LogicalAI wrote:
I'm certainly not marketing my bot as something that gives unfair advantage, Ray is not marketing Winholdem that way, I'm not sure who wears the pants on the OH team after OH said 'Geesh' to me, but from what I understand they are not marketing their product as something that gives unfair advantage. No products include a winning formula.


Actually, Ray is marketing unfair advantage, as he is marketing teaming (collusion). And collusion is unfair advantage, no matter if you do it with bots, or in other means. OH does not support teaming neither any other bots I know of. When Ray introduced teaming in his products, this caused much more dislike for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Legality of using and selling bots
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:30 am 
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indiana wrote:
LogicalAI wrote:
I'm certainly not marketing my bot as something that gives unfair advantage, Ray is not marketing Winholdem that way, I'm not sure who wears the pants on the OH team after OH said 'Geesh' to me, but from what I understand they are not marketing their product as something that gives unfair advantage. No products include a winning formula.


Actually, Ray is marketing unfair advantage, as he is marketing teaming (collusion). And collusion is unfair advantage, no matter if you do it with bots, or in other means. OH does not support teaming neither any other bots I know of. When Ray introduced teaming in his products, this caused much more dislike for it.


This is the same situation as with guns. Do guns kill people or do people kill people?

Ray is selling a gun, you have to spend months programming that gun to achieve collusion. It's unlikely to be a tool used by the general public not affiliated with casinos themselves. Out of the box, Rays gun does nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Legality of using and selling bots
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:39 am 
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LogicalAI wrote:
This is the same situation as with guns. Do guns kill people or do people kill people?

Ray is selling a gun, you have to spend months programming that gun to achieve collusion. It's unlikely to be a tool used by the general public not affiliated with casinos themselves. Out of the box, Rays gun does nothing.


Well, but in certain countries, selling guns, no matter what they can or cannot do out of the box is illegal.

Guns is a bad example in this context however, as we go into discussions where we need to quantify moral things from real life (with the same argumentation you can say that selling drugs is also ok, as someone might buy the drug and just put it on his desk and watch it, but not use it).

While with collusion things are much more simple and unbiased: Collusion gives unfair advantage from game theory point of view, while botting does not. This is a clear line.

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 Post subject: Re: Legality of using and selling bots
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:44 pm 
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Within most states in the USA, gambling is illegal. So playing online poker is illegal in most states within the USA. Botting breaks no local or foreign laws . . . except in rare circumstances (NV prohibits the use of computer aids when gambling). Does botting break the code of conduct at poker sites? Yes. So does swearing!

There is a big difference between something being illegal and something not being in accordance with the user agreement. I would be willing to bet that over half of the people playing online poker -- human players -- have at least one illegal copy of a software package on their computer. That not only breaks the user agreement but also is illegal in the USA.

So the bottom line is people have no problem breaking user agreements or even laws when it suits them, they just don't want others doing it when it's no advantage to the person.


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 Post subject: Re: Logical AI Botting Platform
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:36 pm 
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LogicalAI wrote:
Let's talk about specific examples.

Why do you need to speak about specific examples now ? You were in a certain line of arguments and now you've cut that line.
You had two open questions to reply to.

Adrian20XX wrote:
LogicalAI wrote:
If you dissect the entire food chain, an interesting picture emerges.
The casinos are cheating everyone, the fraudsters are cheating them, the 2+2 are cheating newbs cause they have better tools, the botters are grinding away in the background, which is considered cheating by some. Basically, until the newbs learn to cheat themselves one way or the other, they are screwed.

You are here confusing the term "cheating" with "earns money from".
In some way you should earn money in order to live I guess, and it seems one of the ways you do it is by selling software.
1) So does the fact that you earn money from your customers allows them to start selling multiple times the licences of your program because "you cheated them"?
2) Does the fact that Mc Donalds earns money from it's customers allow them to start stealing the chairs in order to earn money back?
Regards ...

Regards ...


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 Post subject: Re: Logical AI Botting Platform
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:35 pm 
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Adrian20XX wrote:
LogicalAI wrote:
Let's talk about specific examples.

Why do you need to speak about specific examples now ? You were in a certain line of arguments and now you've cut that line.
You had two open questions to reply to.

Adrian20XX wrote:
LogicalAI wrote:
If you dissect the entire food chain, an interesting picture emerges.
The casinos are cheating everyone, the fraudsters are cheating them, the 2+2 are cheating newbs cause they have better tools, the botters are grinding away in the background, which is considered cheating by some. Basically, until the newbs learn to cheat themselves one way or the other, they are screwed.

You are here confusing the term "cheating" with "earns money from".
In some way you should earn money in order to live I guess, and it seems one of the ways you do it is by selling software.
1) So does the fact that you earn money from your customers allows them to start selling multiple times the licences of your program because "you cheated them"?
2) Does the fact that Mc Donalds earns money from it's customers allow them to start stealing the chairs in order to earn money back?
Regards ...

Regards ...


I'm not sure if you understood correctly, but you are getting way off topic here. What we are talking about in this thread is weather it's moral or not to run poker bots online and the legality of the above.

Considering you were not even the one who started this topic, I certainly don't see how me answering questions about software piracy and McDonalds is relevant. Perhaps you can start a new thread and see if you get some interest.

As far as your claims that breaking EULAs is immoral, I think I have shown beyond the reasonable doubt that it's not any more immoral than the deeds that the majority of players are involved in today.

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 Post subject: Re: Logical AI Botting Platform
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:00 pm 
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LogicalAI wrote:
I'm not sure if you understood correctly, but you are getting way off topic here. What we are talking about in this thread is weather it's moral or not to run poker bots online and the legality of the above.

Are you trying to disqualify me? :-)
Yes, I've understood, and you know that.

LogicalAI wrote:
Considering you were not even the one who started this topic, I certainly don't see how me answering questions about software piracy and McDonalds is relevant. Perhaps you can start a new thread and see if you get some interest.

You agreed with Indiana in the quote I've put there, and explain why you agreed with Indiana. And Indiana was replying to a post by me in which he was saying that if botting is cheating then using PT is also cheating. And the questions I've said were in regards to your "food chain argument", so they are totally relevant, if the "food chain argument" from your point of view allows botting where it is forbidden by the EULA, it should also allow the two things I've asked, and hence the food chain argument becomes nonsense. And it had already became nonsense, the food chain argument has been disqualified and everyones knows that, we don't even need your answer now. And even if I didn't started the thread, it doesn't matter, when you are convinced about an argument the point is not who started the thread. So now you try again to deviate the point from the "food chain argument" that you stated to another subject, who started the post.

LogicalAI wrote:
As far as your claims that breaking EULAs is immoral, I think I have shown beyond the reasonable doubt that it's not any more immoral than the deeds that the majority of players are involved in today.

I said that breaking EULAs by using bots is cheating, I wouldn't go so far to call it immoral. Morality is a personal and subjetive subject.

But what you have showned beyond any reasonable doubt is that you are willing to do anything to try to justify that using a bot in a place where it breaks the EULA is not cheating. And also that you are not discussing this openly in the way that if the arguments shows you that your originial position was wrong you are willing to modify it.
You are married to that position, and that's the reason when you reply with the "food chain argument" and I show that it is nonsense, you instaforget about that, and you make as you never say it and try to justify your position by other arguments.


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 Post subject: Re: Legality of using and selling bots
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:29 pm 
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Adrian, in my mind the food chain argument and the EULA are one in the same. I was agreeing with Indiana, who said:
indiana wrote:
OK, first, pokerbotting give no unfair advantage. Second, it is allowed at some casinos, namely these that does not forbid it in their license agreement. So selling a product is fine.

If pokerbotting is cheating, using poker tracker (or any other software) is cheating too, it's that simple, there is no other meaningful logic based on which you can draw any moral lines or definitions. You can either draw the line along using/not using any softweare or along giving/not giving unfair advantage from game theory perspective.


To which I followed up with the food chain picture, and an example from PartyGaming's Unfair Advantage Policy, which in my mind solidifies the food chain argument I was making.

I guess you feel different...

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 Post subject: Re: Legality of using and selling bots
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:09 pm 
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BlueSilicon wrote:
Within most states in the USA, gambling is illegal. So playing online poker is illegal in most states within the USA. Botting breaks no local or foreign laws


:? If playing poker is illegal how can botting be legal? Isn't this like saying killing is illegal, but killing with poison is legal?


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 Post subject: Re: Legality of using and selling bots
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:18 pm 
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Judge This court holds that botting software constitutes cheating under the 1845 Gaming Act. You were caught red handed with such software and yet you are pleading guilty. Please explain.

Spears
I am innocent because some players other swore on the website in contravention of the rules.

Court :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Judge Send him down.


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