Image Image Image




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:29 am 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 2342
Favourite Bot: My next one
indiana wrote:
Ups. Not cool ...

http://www.gamingintelligence.com/index ... ne-results

Quote:
The Finance Committee of the French Senate has introduced an amendment to the country’s draft gaming bill which could see Chinese style censorship of search engines to block the listing of unlicensed online gaming operators.


There are indeed another law proposal about building a chinese style "firewall" which would blacklist access to some websites at the ISP levels. I think australia already has such a thing in place.

It's still hotly debated but part of the whole idea behind the gambling law. If you don't cut access to other sites then nobody would play on licenced sites.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:39 pm 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 2342
Favourite Bot: My next one
Couldn't find an english article, but Loppsi (the law that ultimately plans to "ban" bad websites, which includes foreign non compliant gambling) is being discussed right now and should be voted in the next 10 days. As of right now it seems that we're moving from a purely state controlled list to a list where judges would have to validate entries.

VPN may become very prevalent in the next few months for french poker players, unless sites stop welcoming them. Which is a possibility.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:07 pm 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Posts: 458
Location: Now in the mighty PolarBoar variant!
Favourite Bot: ...
aiaiai wrote:
There are indeed another law proposal about building a chinese style "firewall" which would blacklist access to some websites at the ISP levels. I think australia already has such a thing in place.

It's still hotly debated but part of the whole idea behind the gambling law. If you don't cut access to other sites then nobody would play on licenced sites.


Polish goverment is currently passing the same law - forcing ISPs to block blacklisted sites, with the blacklist being maintainted by courts. There are some protests from various civil liberty/human rights organization, which point out to the goverment that the idea is basically return of the censorship, and the protests are big enough that the goverment stated it'll reconsider it's position. We'll see where it goes.

For me, and for most people in Poland who treat poker more or less seriously, this doesn't change much - the game is already illegal and we must hide poker income. The only thing that changes is the need to use VPN. I, for one, will be seriously considering moving my botting to UK if the profits become big enough to justify it, since (AFAIK) online poker is both legal and tax-free in UK.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:23 pm 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 2342
Favourite Bot: My next one
Law passed senate (upper legislative chamber) with almost no change to what was described earlier in the thread. It now needs to go back to assembly (lower chamber) for final approval, or further modifications (which would need to be approved to).


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:51 pm 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 7731
Favourite Bot: V12
I found that on 2p2 that kind of summarizes it:

Quote:
The "Sénat" (the 2nd Chamber) approved the Bill, new draft is here : http://www.senat.fr/petite-loi-ameli/2009-2010/210.html.

Nothing that may be of interest for French poker players really changed. Tax remains 2% of bets capped at 1 euro for CG and 2% of BI+rebuy+addon uncapped for tournaments and the french players will still be separated from the rest of the world.

The article that forbid operators to be licensed if they continue to accept French players after the Bill has passed was removed. But the Government announced that they will be prosecuted in a timely manner if they operate before getting licensed.

The one that forced operators to prove they closed all french players accounts before applying for a licence was removed from the Bill. But they reworded another article so operators will have to do it anyway :)

Next step : the Bill goes back to the "Assemblée Nationale" (1st Chamber). If they vote the new draft without changing anything, it will be almost final (only Constitutional Court can break it).

_________________
indiana


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:15 am 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Posts: 451
Favourite Bot: gimmick
PolarBear wrote:
online poker is both legal and tax-free in UK.


Unfortunately that doesn't make you, a poland citizen living in poland, free to play poker as much as you want and legitimate to hide such income from you tax department, even if the servers are abroad.

I don't know your specific laws (which may differs) but in most countries, to pay personal income taxes abroad, you have to physically move there. Here in Italy there are plenty of VIPs who pay taxes to San Marino (where they keep nominal residence), but if they actually live and have most of their interests in Italy they are considered unlawful and hunted down anyway.
For what concern actual business, you may also make an enterprise there and let your enterprise earn the money and pay the taxes there (because the enterprise is there as a whole), but enterprises cannot play poker, only physical people can, so this approach is pretty borderline, too.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:28 am 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 1115
Favourite Bot: Johnny #5
PolarBear wrote:
I, for one, will be seriously considering moving my botting to UK if the profits become big enough to justify it, since (AFAIK) online poker is both legal and tax-free in UK.

What are "big enough" profits?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:23 am 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 7731
Favourite Bot: V12
Ockham wrote:
but enterprises cannot play poker, only physical people can, so this approach is pretty borderline, too.

So people working in an enterprise cannot play poker?

_________________
indiana


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:29 pm 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Posts: 458
Location: Now in the mighty PolarBoar variant!
Favourite Bot: ...
c2008 wrote:
PolarBear wrote:
I, for one, will be seriously considering moving my botting to UK if the profits become big enough to justify it, since (AFAIK) online poker is both legal and tax-free in UK.

What are "big enough" profits?


Basically profits that are too big to be able to hide them from taxation. For example, AFAIK in my country if you want to perform any transaction exceeding a cetrain treshold (10k euros or something similar), the transaction is being automatically reported to taxes for screening. If the amount is suspiciously large compared to your reported (official) income, they'll want to investigate it. So big transactions like buying for example a house/flat, a company etc. with botting money would require a move to another country.
Having said that, I'd REALLY like to be in position to have such worries :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:52 pm 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Posts: 458
Location: Now in the mighty PolarBoar variant!
Favourite Bot: ...
Ockham wrote:
PolarBear wrote:
online poker is both legal and tax-free in UK.


Unfortunately that doesn't make you, a poland citizen living in poland, free to play poker as much as you want and legitimate to hide such income from you tax department, even if the servers are abroad.

I don't know your specific laws (which may differs) but in most countries, to pay personal income taxes abroad, you have to physically move there. Here in Italy there are plenty of VIPs who pay taxes to San Marino (where they keep nominal residence), but if they actually live and have most of their interests in Italy they are considered unlawful and hunted down anyway.
For what concern actual business, you may also make an enterprise there and let your enterprise earn the money and pay the taxes there (because the enterprise is there as a whole), but enterprises cannot play poker, only physical people can, so this approach is pretty borderline, too.


I'm affraid you might be right. OTOH, I could try to play from UK and then report my income in Poland with request to calculate due tax. I think it might pose some problems for taxes officials, since the general rule is that the authorities cannot draw profits from illegal activities (and online poker is considered illegal in Poland) . And even if they conclude that I should pay taxes according to standard progressive scale I'd be more than happy to do it - my main goal is not to avoid taxation, but just to be able to pay the damn taxes and live a life of law-abiding citizen :xx18


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:38 pm 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 1239
Favourite Bot: my bot
Assuming you don't want to move to the UK, otherwise do think this might work?

You play poker in Poland. You form a company in the UK. You buy "advice" from the UK company with your winnings so that you don't make any money in Poland. You pay tax in the UK (sadly) and export the earnings back to Poland. AFAIK you don't have to be a UK resident to own a UK company.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:47 pm 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Posts: 458
Location: Now in the mighty PolarBoar variant!
Favourite Bot: ...
spears wrote:
Assuming you don't want to move to the UK, otherwise do think this might work?

You play poker in Poland. You form a company in the UK. You buy "advice" from the UK company with your winnings so that you don't make any money in Poland. You pay tax in the UK (sadly) and export the earnings back to Poland. AFAIK you don't have to be a UK resident to own a UK company.


I've considered this - the company can even be registered in Poland (I don't see why in your example it's registered in the UK). The problem is that, as you described it, it is a textbook money laundring scheme (using proxy company which provides nonexisting services which allow for legalizing money) , which is well defined by law and probably also has high enough detection rates for me to never want to touch this idea.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:02 pm 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 1239
Favourite Bot: my bot
- I sited the company outside Poland because I thought you didn't want a company involved in poker in Poland
- The advice could be tangible. If the AI was on a server in UK it would actually be true.
- I thought money laundering was about "cleaning" stolen money. I don't see anything stolen here.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:21 pm 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Posts: 458
Location: Now in the mighty PolarBoar variant!
Favourite Bot: ...
Quote:
- The advice could be tangible. If the AI was on a server in UK it would actually be true.


Then comes the question of - how am I being able to afford this advice? If my yearly spendings in this proxy company exceed my official income, that's suspicious. The fact that I'm also the owner of this company makes this not even suspicious, but just plain obvious IMO.

Quote:
- I thought money laundering was about "cleaning" stolen money. I don't see anything stolen here.


It's about all money obtained from illegal activities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering


PS. The discussion is really interesting, and it could go on for a long time (I've discussed it IRL a few times already and the ideas can get really crazy) but I've got a bot to code :) So if you don't mind I'd prefer to postpone it until it's more than just interesting academic problem for me. BTW, if it becomes relevant my first step will probably be consulting with attorney who specializes in this stuff.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:40 pm 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 1115
Favourite Bot: Johnny #5
Why not do the reverse... Set up a company in Poland that sells advice (i.e. provides the A.I.) to other countries where botting is legal? Or, provide it in such a manner that you are not liable for it's use/misuse.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:10 pm 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Posts: 458
Location: Now in the mighty PolarBoar variant!
Favourite Bot: ...
c2008 wrote:
Why not do the reverse... Set up a company in Poland that sells advice (i.e. provides the A.I.) to other countries where botting is legal? Or, provide it in such a manner that you are not liable for it's use/misuse.


Yeah, this one might actually work :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:09 pm 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 2342
Favourite Bot: My next one
Many sites are kicking out French players. Anyone having issues here ?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:45 pm 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Posts: 356
Favourite Bot: OpenHoldem
indiana wrote:
that's unbeatable?!

Here you go:


Zoobie wrote:
The state will make a debit on the bets (!) :
- 2% for poker
- 8.5% for sport bets
- 15.5% for horse-races

Why is the rake always so freaking huge for horse-races?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:24 pm 
Offline
Senior member
User avatar

Posts: 451
Favourite Bot: gimmick
On the topic.

http://www.maxinmontreal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=171&t=11190


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:16 pm 
Offline
PokerAI fellow
User avatar

Posts: 2342
Favourite Bot: My next one
Stars.fr rake :
2% preflop
7% postflop
13.5% (!) on tourneys

Seriously. On tourneys they are just milking players, not only did they add the 2% tax but an extra 1.5 just for fun :D


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: