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 Post subject: Introduction of language specific forums
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:16 pm 
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I wish to manifest my opinion contrary to language specific forums.
If popular it will reduce forum usability to the crowd.


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 Post subject: Re: Willkommen
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:21 pm 
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What do you mean? It won't stop people from coming here but instead will attract more people that are just more comfortable to talk in their native language. And there are a bunch of germans on these forums plus there may be some country specific discussions that don't really need to go into the general forums.
Just makes it more structured IMO.

/Edit:/ Otherwise, care to elaborate?

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 Post subject: Re: Willkommen
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:25 pm 
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Ockham, nothing will change with the already existing forums. There are many people that even don't speak good english, or feel much comfortable speaking in German. Attracting these would help overal, I don't think the regular members will now switch over, or something like this.

Also, the restricted German forum should not replace the general one. For the time being it is mostly for topics that are fully german specific, or such which I don't want to be public until the ToS regulations for the german section are developed and so on.

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 Post subject: Re: Willkommen
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:03 pm 
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Coffee4tw wrote:
Otherwise, care to elaborate?


If there's a (popular enough) language specific forum, non english natives with mediocre english skills will feel legitimate to contribute (maybe interesting) content in own language instead of taking the time and try to contribute in english.
This will greatly reduce usability of such content, thus reduce the value of the forum as a whole.

At the opposite if there's no such forum, everybody will feel the need to learn and improve at least minimal english and everybody will then be able to understand any content. This will not only keep content maximally usable by everybody but also improve individual users skills thus improving the value of their contributed content.

Quote:
there may be some country specific discussions that don't really need to go into the general forums.


I can't really see any. If you are referring to meetings in german land i may surely be happy to make some kilometers to join you and have a beer during an important fair and would be disappointed if such meetings are discussed in german only.
Also german specific laws on gambling are definately interesting to me, being myself in Europe, and again would be disappointed to know that i can't discover and discuss about most recent local laws on poker.

Quote:
Ockham, nothing will change with the already existing forums.


Let's say a new user comes and want to make a newbye question. He sees the german forum and so, because he speak english so and so, he decide to make his question in the german forum. But his question was actually interesting and thus generate a non trivial thread in german only. All this content will be useless to most* forum users and that will actually reduce the value of existing forums because part of its content will be instead generated in another (less usable) forum.
Maybe you may eventually decide to translate such thread in english for the benefit of the rest of us, but can you guarantee you will translate all such interesting threads if the german forum becomes popular enough? Obviously not.
Much better if users takes the time to elaborate their question in a way everybody can understand and then contribute.

Quote:
feel much comfortable speaking in German


I feel much more confortable speaking in italian, myself. But that doesn't impede me to try to read and write in english and improve doing so.

You are used to point this forum as a research forum on poker artificial intelligence.
Fact is that research events (i.e. workshop) are always hold in english, even when they are mostly nationally local and only a very small part of the contributor are foreigners.
This is because is important to keep any contribution maximally usable.
I'm sure there are plenty of places where german can speak in german about poker. I would greatly prefere that content of an international research forum about poker is kept in english only.

* http://pokerai.org/pf3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1763&start=0


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 Post subject: Re: Willkommen
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:22 pm 
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@Ockham, you should really spend this amount of energy on some other topic :)

Making people learn good english to discuss Poker AI is not the right approach. If they want to learn english, there are other ways to do that more efficiently, not by mixing this with their poker AI hobbies.

The primary language and most of the valuable content of this forum will remain in Enlgish. But many forums out there (regardless of their focus) have introduced international sub-forums in addition, and this did not work for them in the way you are describing it (but the opposite, it helped overall).

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 Post subject: Re: Willkommen
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:59 pm 
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indiana wrote:
(regardless of their focus)


I don't think the focus is unimportant.

A community forum, driven by just sheer number, will greatly enjoy specialized language forums.
I intend PokerAI as a technical forum and i can't see good reasons for specialized language forums in this case, as the focus is in the content, not just number of users.


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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of language specific forums
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:20 pm 
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The forum is techical, but covers an array of different topics. I don't see the difference to any other forum like pokerstrategy, 2+2, and countless others who have language specific forums.

Often, by attracting and encouraging discussions in native language (that wouldn't have happened otherwise) helps also to the members that don't speak that language, because bi-lingual members will translate the outcome of the discussion when relevant, and so on.

Let's see how it goes, and come back to this later. I don't think anyone will be hurt from that, rather the opposite.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of language specific forums
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:35 pm 
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indiana wrote:
I don't see the difference to any other forum like pokerstrategy, 2+2, and countless others who have language specific forums.
Traffic ? :p

I understand the need for some country related discussions (access to sites, taxes, etc) but probability of content dilution looks way too high for those who don't speak german.


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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of language specific forums
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:38 pm 
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aiaiai wrote:
Traffic ? :p

Nope. In fact on the big forums (like 2+2 etc.) this was done because the forums were losing traffic to other (local) forums. Many forums allow this option from day1 (most frequent combinations are native + english only, thou).

Also, I don't plan to open soon a Russian, French, Brazilian etc. forums (thou I had at least 3 brazilian guys that PMed me they can't speak english). Let see how it goes with the German one as experiment, and see then.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of language specific forums
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:26 pm 
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indiana wrote:
aiaiai wrote:
Traffic ? :p

Nope. In fact on the big forums (like 2+2 etc.) this was done because the forums were losing traffic to other (local) forums.

Are you saying pokerai.org is losing traffic to a german botting forum ? :xx19

My argument was that current traffic wasn't sufficient to sustain a local subforum, hence leading to content dilution (as mentionned by Ockham).

Edit : The "restricted" german section is obviously bad for the same reasons and proves the point that good content will get diluted.


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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of language specific forums
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:29 pm 
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Guys, I would really not worry too much about this.

The restricted German forum I needed first of all to discuss German laws that are especially relevant for me (both as poker player and as involved in hosting this website). I wouldn't see it as a split of our normal restriceted forums.

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of language specific forums
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:02 am 
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Ik heb hier alleszins niet echt een probleem mee, zolang de taal-specifieke fora zich enkel bezig houden met zaken die eigen zijn aan de landen waarin de taal gebruikt wordt.
Wel begrijp ik de vrees van sommigen onder ons, dat interessante, meer algemene informatie zich zou gaan verspreiden over verschillende subgroepen... en dat moet natuurlijk vermeden worden.
Uiteindelijk is het niet de bedoeling dat elke taalgroep afzonderlijk dezelfde zaken gaat bespreken lijkt me...

:xx19

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of language specific forums
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:07 pm 
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Arno wrote:
I do not have in every way really a problem, as long as taal-specifieke occupy themselves the forums only with matter which is own to the countries in which the language is used. However, the apprehension of some understands I under our that interesting, further general information would will spread itself concerning several subgroups… and that must be avoided of course. Eventual it not the intention that is each language group separately the same matter goes discuss seems me…

:xx19


Google translate still has some way to go :)

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of language specific forums
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:18 pm 
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indiana wrote:
Google translate still has some way to go :)


Actually the translation is quite accurate :) Last time I tried those translation services (babelfish) was about 8 years ago... seems it improved *a lot* :)

Actually, this is wat google translator gives me (what did you use??)

Quote:
I have not really any way a problem with that as long as the language-specific forums are only concerned with matters specific to the countries where the language is used.
But I understand the fears of some of us, that interesting, more general information would spread over to different subgroups ... which should naturally be avoided.
Ultimately it is not intended that each separate language group is discussing the same issues I think ...

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of language specific forums
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:23 pm 
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Oh, I actually used Altavista Dutch -> English (Not Google as I said). Did you use google? It seems Google is much better for this kind of translation ...!

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 Post subject: Re: Introduction of language specific forums
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:29 pm 
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indiana wrote:
Oh, I actually used Altavista Dutch -> English (Not Google as I said). Did you use google? It seems Google is much better for this kind of translation ...!



Yeah, altavista babelfish uses a grammar based rule approach. Google translator uses a stochastic approach which is trained based on hunders of thousands united nations documents which are genuinly available in 6 languages.

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