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 Post subject: Ranging the Turn and River
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:18 pm 
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I have a question regarding assigning a range on the turn and river and finding a method that excludes hands from a range. I am sure this has been worked on or there is some source available but I have been unable to find it.

My 9 player bot is profitable so I decided to tackle HU which has been tougher then I had anticipated. The HU bot is getting more complex by the day and this range problem is critical for success in HU imo.

So far I have the bot assigning a range to the villain based on his PFR% which is the norm. I have it adjusting for a number of things including if he 3+ bets my raise or if he calls my raise. If he calls my raise then I am excluding typical raising hands from his range. I also have a range for limping excluding raising hands etc. That is all easy stuff.

Now that is fine for ranging on the flop. It does not alter the flop strategy too much (right now I am using to determine if I can check back instead of c bet) but on the turn is where it becomes way more important. A typical caller would probably float any middle or bottom pair, 8 out draw and perhaps a gutshot and an overcard or maybe even two overcards. At minimum maybe Ace high and a backdoor flush draw. He would generally raise anything else like a set, top or two pair which makes for easy folds most of the time. Tough players might semi bluff draws but if we are betting air it would not matter anyway. Knowing what range he has on the turn would be a huge advantage as I would know when to double barrel the turn and even triple barrel the river. I can think of all kinds of scenarios in which this could be extremely useful info combined with having position.

Now..its easy in PokerStove to manually to determine what hands out of his range he is probably calling with and isolate just those hands into a new range to figure out rough equity on the turn. My hand evaluator will not do that. Does anybody know of one that will? If not it will have to be written as this is critical for HU. I have a few ideas on how it could be done but I was hoping somebody has worked this out already.

Any help would be appreciated. TIA


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 Post subject: Re: Ranging the Turn and River
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:14 am 
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Well I figured it out. Took a few hours but it's so slow it's not gonna work. About 10 seconds


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 Post subject: Re: Ranging the Turn and River
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:50 am 
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I'm in a similar position, where I'm trying to discern various forms of anomalous play based on opponent statistics. On example would be preflop pushing frequency... > 0.005, 0.05, 0.15, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Ranging the Turn and River
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:50 am 
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I fixed it. Down to under a second. Was easier then I thought. Now how to use the info correctly...


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 Post subject: Re: Ranging the Turn and River
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:04 am 
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shalako wrote:
My 9 player bot is profitable

...

Now..its easy in PokerStove to manually to determine what hands out of his range he is probably calling with and isolate just those hands into a new range to figure out rough equity on the turn. My hand evaluator will not do that.

Off-topic:
You managed to build winning 9max without it? Surprise. What stakes do you play?

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Бетономешалка!!! Мешает бетон!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Ranging the Turn and River
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:09 pm 
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concretemixer wrote:
shalako wrote:
My 9 player bot is profitable
Now..its easy in PokerStove to manually to determine what hands out of his range he is probably calling with and isolate just those hands into a new range to figure out rough equity on the turn. My hand evaluator will not do that.

Off-topic:
You managed to build winning 9max without it? Surprise. What stakes do you play?


Yes I did. I just used the normal pokereval hand evaluator for 9 max. There are no ranges because I designed it for the zoom/rush games so player modeling is not a factor since it is playing virtually unknown villians on every hand. It took me 8 months of work before it was profitable btw. It was not easy even for those types of games.

HU is completely different beast. Anyway..I figured out everything last night and have adopted it into my prototype HU bot. I was still unable to get the "true" equity with pokereval since I cannot pass an exact range of hands to it but I am able to get enough info to make a very good informed decision.

Since I know what generally his calling/raising range would be I can easily make a determination on whether I should c bet the flop or check back with air. An example is if I know his range is 44 possible hands and 20 of them are callable and 6 are check raiseable then I know that 59% of the time I am in trouble so a c bet is pointless unless I have a made hand myself. There are other factors I need to work on here but its a start.


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 Post subject: Re: Ranging the Turn and River
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:21 pm 
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Can you shed any light on your new method?
I'm at a similar stage right now.

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Ranging the Turn and River
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:00 pm 
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JP11 wrote:
Can you shed any light on your new method?
I'm at a similar stage right now.

Thanks.


Sure. Just to get it working I only added the top 25 hands or so into an array. You have to add each possible combination of suits for each hand. So each hand that is not a pair will have 8 combinations and pairs 4. So excluding typical raising hands I had 176 combinations in the array to check for. You also need to check that the card in the array is not on the board.

I then ran each one of these hands thru the game state evaluator (I use Timmys available in the General forum) checking for top pair+, middle pair, bottom pair, 4+ out str8 draws, 8 out flush draws etc. If true on any of these I flag the hand and add it as a possible holding. I also add any of the possible calling hands into a new array for the turn.

So before I decide to bet I determine the likelihood of him calling or raising me. Lets assume I am ok and I c bet the flop and get called. Now I reevaluate whether to fire another bullet based on his calling range and if he hit or not. This is where it gets a little dicey with a bluff. Depending on the player he may or may not continue with a weak pair but generally I think its a good idea to fire again for several reasons. First of course is fold equity and second is whether my hand is showdownable or not. If my hand is not showdownable I might as well fire as I have no way to win anyway.

Whether to fire a third bullet on the river will depend on a bunch of other factors. This is where my 9 player bot greatly differs from true HU on turn play. My 9 player bot HU would check anything but two pair+ with position (small ball) to keep the pot small on the turn. It would fire a bullet on the river with nothing only if the turn was checked around the hand was not showdownable (like a busted draw etc). Also if the other guy checks he is not betting for value (generally) so you can again assume (generally again!) the villian has nothing or a weak hand and fire away and hope he folds. Like many people get scared when the 3 flush hits the river and check. If you both checked the turn and he checked again you can be very certain it didn't hit him or he would be betting it. So your sitting there with 6 high and your hand evaluator is telling you to check fold. That is very weak poker.


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 Post subject: Re: Ranging the Turn and River
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:05 am 
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I was thinking more about ranging. One thing I mentioned above was how my 9max bot will check the turn for pot control and not double barrel to avoid playing a big pot with only a pair. By checking in that situation I have defined my range to the villian assuming I have history with him which is a bad thing. I think I will randomize that a bit and give off a free card once in awhile to induce a weaker hand to call on the river. Always something to think about on these bots..are they ever finished?


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