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 Post subject: A win-win vision for a poker site where bots play humans
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:26 am 
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I'm on record as opposing bots playing at sites that don't allow it. But I recognize that one of the better points made by the pro-botting for money crowd in this debate is that there is no good place for bots to play humans, because most sites don't allow it. I actually agree with this and think the sites should remedy it. But, I'm not holding my breath. So I got to thinking... is there a way to have a site where bots play humans that is actually attractive to the humans. The key here is that there would have to be something distinctly better about such a site to get people to accept the tradeoff. There would also have to be some way to prevent bots from feeding to hard off of the people if and when bots get strong.

I'm imagining that the botters would have to create this site, so I asked myself what such a site could offer that would make me interested in it. That's simple: no rake. Pay a monthly subscriptions and play unlimited poker after that as a zero sum game where the house doesn't get a cut. To protect people from being preyed on by better bots, simply force registered bots to follow game selection / bankroll management rigour that basically assures they'll move up or down so that, over the long haul, they break even. Suddenly they could be a feature that simply stocks the games with more break even regulars who happen to be bots. The site could enforce this by controlling which games are offered to the bots based on their stats and graphs.


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 Post subject: Re: A win-win vision for a poker site where bots play humans
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:34 am 
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As a human player I'd love to know if I was playing against a bot as I'd start looking for major holes in its game. Think it could be a gold mine for human players.

Good testing for bot writers too, having people knowing they're bots and looking for those holes.


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 Post subject: Re: A win-win vision for a poker site where bots play humans
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:41 am 
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I also thought about it ... yeah - I also think that if it was possible to securely mark bots as bots (maybe make them need to act really fast to prevent 'remote humans') this site could get soon word of beeing the best fishy site there is around (because of all the people starting to write bad bots in the beginning).


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 Post subject: Re: A win-win vision for a poker site where bots play humans
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:38 pm 
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The only ways I see that marked bots could play against human players is by playing on a poker site where player names where anonymous or on a site which adopted the scramble concept used in Fult Tilts rush poker. Otherwise players would only try to play bots they could exploit and exploited bots would stop playing humans which they lost to. This means that the human vs bot action would die rather quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: A win-win vision for a poker site where bots play humans
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:02 pm 
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Take a look at any chess server to see how marked bots would be integrated. Freechess.org for example. The pro's would either play to exploit them or to improve their own game.


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 Post subject: Re: A win-win vision for a poker site where bots play humans
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:40 pm 
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loudion - if this idea with marked bots is implemented, I think it's far away from clear who (the humans, or the bots) would need help and artificial advantage (like allowance to change names).

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 Post subject: Re: A win-win vision for a poker site where bots play humans
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:57 am 
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Now that I think about it, as long as the people know they **might** be playing a bot, I don't see why they have to know exactly which players are bots. The house would know, just like any site today knows who is depositing in the real world.

I don't see why the bots would be any worse off for being exploited here. If the house enforces a rule that makes each bot play at a level where they break even, then the humans in the same games would be just as good or bad and just as exploitable.

What would also be interesting is to explicitly allow data mining and public sharing of hand history analysis. What if the site shared the all hole cards revealed hand histories for everything. So every player, bots included, could have people blogging with statistical analysis of how to exploit them based on their actual history. This probably seems like blashphemy to many poker players, but I can't think of a better way to plug your own leaks (whether you are a bot or a human) than to have everybody know what they are.


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 Post subject: Re: A win-win vision for a poker site where bots play humans
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:33 am 
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bwtaylor wrote:
I don't see why the bots would be any worse off for being exploited here. If the house enforces a rule that makes each bot play at a level where they break even, then the humans in the same games would be just as good or bad and just as exploitable.


Don't really get your idea of the house enforcing a rule where the bots play break even?
What would then be the motivation for anyone to write a bot?

On the datamining and public hand histories - that are different issues. Building a bot without knowing any opponent hands is sufficiently interesting.

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