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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:27 pm 
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Anyone knows if the "no rakeback" law also applies to Stars VIP program?


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:36 pm 
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Ockham wrote:
Anyone knows if the "no rakeback" law also applies to Stars VIP program?

It's my understanding there's no such law in the final text.

VIP program is still there : http://www.pokerstars.fr/vip/


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:26 am 
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This is why "tax and regulate" isn't as good as the proponents like to say - nobody can beat a 15%+ rake! It's worse than UIGEA, in fact to have a "government rake" in every pot. A tax on overall winnings would be OK but government will always find a way to screw things up.

It's possible live to beat a higher rake, but not online, where the play is much, much tighter and there are many "rakeback pros" trying to earn money just through volume. 15% is actually a typical rake live, when dealer tips are factored in, but the cap as a percentage of the pot is less. Now granted, the high rake would drive many of the rackback pros out of the game, so an equilibrium would be established, but basically the reality is that online there simply isn't a 15% edge to be had. In fact, high rakes favor tight play usually, so players playing almost the same strategy might find the game is shifted in their favor, and play even tighter.


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:29 am 
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Unrelated to the french stuff (who have my sympathies!), but I was scrolling back and saw the stuff about no tax in the UK. Just to clarify, there's no tax on gambling earnings provided it is not a trade. Any ideas of setting a company in the UK to dodge the tax wouldn't work for that reason alone, let alone things like how can a company play poker etc.

I'm still waiting for the applecart to be upset because inland revenue notice that some people make a living playing online poker. One scary moment was when Adam Clark (clarkatroid) said he was trying to claim lost earnings due to injury because he couldn't play poker, which clearly smacks of poker winnings = a salary. He said he'd drop the claim if advised it could put the tax thing in jeopardy but it seemed stupid to even consider it (& greedy). I've no idea where his claim stands of today...


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:51 am 
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██████ wrote:
Adam Clark (clarkatroid) said he was trying to claim lost earnings due to injury because he couldn't play poker


From whom? Do you have a reference?


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:30 am 
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from the man himself; http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/ne ... ll-752123/


I was just reading the 2p2 thread on the french situation, and someone's noticed the you don't have to be french to sign up at pokerstars.fr.

I wonder if that means you can have separate pokerstars.com and pokerstars.fr accounts (and not be multiaccounting). That might be useful, as long as you can breakeven on the french rake.

edit: oh, from whom as in claiming from whom. I can't remember now, he had mentioned who vaguely either in the thread or his blog. I don't have much time for that ambulance chasing c**p, but then I've never been in that situation :)


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:17 pm 
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██████ wrote:
edit: oh, from whom as in claiming from whom. I can't remember now, he had mentioned who vaguely either in the thread or his blog. I don't have much time for that ambulance chasing c**p, but then I've never been in that situation :)


Ah, my mistake. Was thinking he was claiming losses from IR.


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:57 pm 
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██████ wrote:
I was just reading the 2p2 thread on the french situation, and someone's noticed the you don't have to be french to sign up at pokerstars.fr.

I wonder if that means you can have separate pokerstars.com and pokerstars.fr accounts (and not be multiaccounting). That might be useful, as long as you can breakeven on the french rake.

Anyone can register for an account on the french site, provided they have a bank account in europe. You also need to provide ID after you reg to validate your acco.

psilon wrote:
A tax on overall winnings would be OK but government will always find a way to screw things up.
If playing poker is your "primary activity", your winnings will be considered as income and taxed on top of the rake. Great thing is, since they now track players accross sites through the regulation authority, you can't even hide your play by spreading over multiple sites.


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:20 pm 
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aiaiai wrote:
Anyone can register for an account on the french site, provided they have a bank account in europe. You also need to provide ID after you reg to validate your acco.


and if you already have a pokerstars.com account? The more accounts I can have the better, but I'm not going to risk things with multiaccounting. Of course I could just email support ;)


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:35 pm 
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██████ wrote:
and if you already have a pokerstars.com account? The more accounts I can have the better, but I'm not going to risk things with multiaccounting. Of course I could just email support ;)
You probably should. Afaik they are independant things.


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:41 pm 
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Best advice from that twoplustwo thread:

"If your lawyer needs help from twoplustwo, you probably want another lawyer" :D


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:38 pm 
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Pretty interesting developments.

First Stars wisened up a bit and lowered it's rake to 11% on tourneys. I'm not sure about cash.
Then Everest isn't taking any rake on preflop pots, which seems pretty much illegal according to the law as I read it, but who knows. They might do some accounting massaging.

But best news imo, is a lot of players are pissed off on french forums and wisening up on techniques such as VPN, opening an account with the identity of a friend out of their country, and how to best move money through accounts.

The increased usage of VPN is pretty good for botting.


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:22 pm 
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aiaiai wrote:
But best news imo, is a lot of players are pissed off on french forums and wisening up on techniques such as VPN, opening an account with the identity of a friend out of their country, and how to best move money through accounts.

The increased usage of VPN is pretty good for botting.


or pretty bad for botting - any increase in use of a particular tech for circumventing site's TOC will make the sites increase efforts to prevent that tech.

It's similar to the reason why I believe the biggest danger to botting is open source bots (and commercial bots to some extent) - if any idiot who can click a mouse to install software can bot easily the more the sites will to work to suppress it, and they don't even have to look that hard at what to target. If botting remained the domain of just poker geeks who know how to code it would face less barriers since it wouldn't be so clear what the sites have to fight against (plus the actual number of bots would be so small that the only reason sites would work to suppress them would be PR, not because it impacts gameplay for everyone else)

One day someone will opensource a strong winning bot, and then we're all screwed imo (not just us botters, but online poker as a whole).


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:30 pm 
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██████ wrote:
One day someone will opensource a strong winning bot, and then we're all screwed imo (not just us botters, but online poker as a whole).


Not really IMO - when that bot and its source code is publicly known to poker sites, its detection becomes trivial. Each site which cares will implement the detection and the off-the-shelf botting will not work anymore for the masses.

On the side note, IMO the likelyhood of someone developing a strong winning bot and then releasing it to the public for free (and thus killing the goose which lays golden eggs) is pretty damn small.


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:26 pm 
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PolarBear wrote:
Not really IMO - when that bot and its source code is publicly known to poker sites, its detection becomes trivial. Each site which cares will implement the detection and the off-the-shelf botting will not work anymore for the masses.
Indeed, getting a statistical fingerprint of the bot would be trivial.

██████ wrote:
or pretty bad for botting - any increase in use of a particular tech for circumventing site's TOC will make the sites increase efforts to prevent that tech.
At the end of the day, in a capitalistic society, it's all about revenue. If swarms of players start using VPNs, they will go to sites that accept them. Obviously one of the big ones will, and not to lose too much revenue, others will pretend they didn't see it happening.


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:37 am 
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██████ wrote:
It's similar to the reason why I believe the biggest danger to botting is open source bots (and commercial bots to some extent) - if any idiot who can click a mouse to install software can bot easily the more the sites will to work to suppress it


I have no fear of idiots, nor i think the networks or the serious poker players have.
Idiots with an open source botting frameworks make perfect fish.


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:40 pm 
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I wouldn't call determining a bots fingerprint trivial, especially for a winning bot while keeping the risk of false positives low. Although I'm not denying your point.

You're also jumping to the techy solution though when sites will try to plug the areas that are much more generic to botting, such as the recent FT update aimed at screen scraping. This type of action affects all bots rather than the specific few.

Also it's true nobody (as a player) should fear the current easily available bots. I just feel that if a decent bot does make it's way into the hands of the masses, then it should be something to worry about for the backlash it would cause, both from players and sites, not for the money we or other players would lose to that bot.

Too much of a derail though, and I've a lot less experience than most of you so I don't want to go on about something you've probably discussed in detail elsewhere :xx01


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:18 am 
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As a side note Playtech i.e. IPoker have been denied a French license


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:36 pm 
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██████ wrote:
I wouldn't call determining a bots fingerprint trivial, especially for a winning bot while keeping the risk of false positives low.
We've seen people match bots on 2+2 by matching very similar PT3 stats for example.

casey999 wrote:
As a side note Playtech i.e. IPoker have been denied a French license
Interesting, since they banned french players too. Do we know why they got denied ?


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 Post subject: Re: French law regarding online gambling
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:55 pm 
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Any french man here that wants to make some money by letting me use his account to bot, since the sites I bot banned french players I run break-even instead of decent profit.

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